• Edits
• Talk

	02-06 00:27	Podcrazy	If it says in the View box that white can tenuki, why is it labeled as bad?
	02-06 00:24		I am still weak, but as the ladder doesn't work, how does this help?
	02-01 07:32		so theres only 18 people on this site
	01-31 05:20		S17 before O14 is answered simply with O16. Very good result for Black.
	01-30 15:24		What the hell is this move doing here? Plz get rid of it!
	01-30 03:51		すごい手ですね。私も打ってみようかしら
	01-12 20:03	Sampi	S19 and S13 are not miai. If black plays S13 white dies.However, professionals have been known to live and create ko in this corner as white with different sequences.
	01-09 06:24		Perhaps the question you should be asking is in what sense is this possibly good for white?
	01-08 08:30		Funny variation :D
	01-06 16:23		I am wondering about this move too
	01-05 08:20		why is that bad for white?
	01-05 07:30		i would hane p17, for me its best for black
	01-03 07:18		Is M15 good for Black?
	01-03 06:13		Takemiya also played this one
	01-02 15:35		Yoda Norimoto has recently used this move in one of his games and It worked out okay for him. I don't think it can be called bad.
	12-27 15:39		is ko really a settled position?
	12-27 13:33		Depends heavily on what is in the corner closest to this move.
	12-19 12:34		I think you would kick the p17 stone and make white overconcentrated.
	12-18 17:26	Brilliant	Go Seigen recently commented that this was a bad move by black. However, it has been speculated that this is simply an attempt by Go to raise awareness in the Go community of other opening styles. In fact, Go was the first person ever to play this fuseki as black, and it remains reasonably common amongst professionals.
	12-18 17:22	Brilliant	I have marked a couple of sequences following from a black pass. They are not necessarily joseki, but they are examples of the kind of thing that can go wrong for black if he passes.
	12-18 12:37		could anyone explain why it's considered bad move?
	12-18 07:44		What if black ignores this joseki and plays elsewhere?
	12-17 20:58		I cleaned up. I think it's good to let people know that M11 local move exists, and that L10 response is generally not good (I have seen kyus play it occasionally, often with one of the deleted "followup moves" from here ending in not-a-natural-tenuki).Whole fuseki from single pro games from the 1930s are interesting, but not desirable here.
	12-17 20:56		I cleaned up. I think it's good to let people know that M11 local move exists, and that L10 response is generally not good (I have seen kyus play it occasionally, often with one of the deleted "followup moves" from here ending in not-a-natural-tenuki).Whole fuseki from single pro games from the 1930s are interesting, but not desirable here.
	12-17 05:57		a strong taiwanese player at our club says that this result is better for black because later on in the game the aji at s14 can come into play
	12-16 00:09	sinse33	If is good for white, why R17 is not the best move and just a good move ?
	12-16 00:03	sinse33	What is the best move for white after black play [p14]
	12-05 15:31		Why is it good for white if there is a move labelled as 'mistake' for white?
	12-04 05:14		anyone knows a continuation here?
	12-02 08:07		How is the continuation here? Where should W play?
	11-22 18:19	Brilliant	In what sense is it incorrect? If you read the comments earlier in the sequence, you will see that it is labelled as a way to refute mirror Go. In that sense it is an entirely legitimate sequence.
	11-20 04:05		Could someone correct or remove this sequence please?
	11-17 18:15		I am questioning this as being superior to another extension due to the sequence I have entered following it.
	11-10 10:24	dkiller	In fact the black stone don't negate white wall and there is still some aji starting with R13 if I don't mistake
	11-06 00:18		This is much better for White than the joseki. White can yet improve by avoiding the P8-Q18 exchange.I hope that helps.
	11-04 07:49	DarkSycthe	Probably this is slightly better for Black than after white pushes once then jumps
	11-03 16:14		Played when black has supporting stones that can trap/kill white group when it escapes towards middle.
	10-30 18:17		If R15 is bad, what is a good move for B? If there is no good continuation, why is S17 marked as ideal?
	10-22 23:46		This black move is described as incorrect in Yilun Yang's 'Tricks in Joseki'
	10-19 21:49		blargyity blargitiy blarg
	10-16 08:22		This seems to be the among the most popular moves with professionals in this situation, so I feel it is only fair to call it ideal rather than good.
	10-13 04:24		leitet in anderes Joseki über, das entsteht, wenn S direkt auf p16 mit p15 anlegt. Daher kann q15 nicht als schwach angesehen werden.
	10-06 18:39	JoeSeki	This is the right move, black has to protect O15 or he loses all those stones
	10-03 07:47		чем этот ход плох???
	10-02 13:27	Brilliant	If something leads to complicated variations, is it necessarily a trick move just by grace of its complicated nature?
	09-30 09:09	Brilliant	I have put some ideal continuations after this move based on games from my professional database, but the database has 017 occur 95 times in total, so none of the variations have a huge body of work to back them up.
	09-26 17:07	Brilliant	This move does not appear to achieve anything at all.
	09-22 15:14	Brilliant	I don't understand your comment. If white plays k16, black still has sente. Q18 is far and away the most common move here among professionals.
	09-20 19:40	sinse33	This move is the correct answer, but [q18] for white is bad, because black keep sentewhite need to play near [k16]
	09-19 15:00		The historical proverb is not that "a diagonal move is never bad". Shusaku said that THIS diagonal move will never be bad no matter how far in the future. Another, different, proverb says that the one-space jump is never bad. All these have to be taken with a grain of salt since whether they are good or not depends on the surrounding position.
	09-15 16:56	Brilliant	I am calling this good since, despite being the standard response for punishing this mistake when you first learn it, it is never the response played by strong players. Indeed, it feels almost like a trick move.
	09-13 06:41	Brilliant	White is dead ;)
	09-11 20:31	Sampi	Black takes the corner? what??
	09-07 10:30	omgn00b_kgs	I've played as black that way, with K16 and D16 (san rei sen)Is this good?
	09-04 13:14	Brilliant	This is clearly inferior for white.
	09-03 06:48		How should you approach this then?
	09-01 09:18		How can thispossibly be good for white?
	09-01 08:48		This move is fine when the top side is most important and white needs to invade.
	09-01 06:43		This move just means that black captures one more stone and finishes in better shape than the normal variation. Since it offers no improvement for these things, it cannot possibly be good.
	08-31 18:00		Did someone say Aji Keshi?
	08-31 12:57		My database has a winning percentage for this move when it is played by black and a losing percentage when it is played by white, out of 80 and 40 games respectively. Both times the results are close to 50%, though, which makes me feel that it is at least a good move.
	08-29 14:45	Sampi	Why is this a bad move if it has been played professionally?
	08-27 17:48		This move has a losing record in my database, but (obviously) has pro examples. Changed to good pending a source on 'bad'.
	08-27 17:33		*Tengen* has been played professionally and I think can be happily considered a shinfuseki move. However, some of the lines marked "ideal" should be "bad" and the "normal" (tried by professionals) "center approach" is missing (I will add it now).My cause for concern is that I've seen (weaker) players trying ""openings" on KGS I believe they have "got" from here.
	08-27 17:23		Unless some high level examples or commentary are cited explaining this, I think we should change this line to "bad" or remove it (meaning no disrespect; it appears to be unplayed and defies normal opening theory).
	08-24 18:37		I am going to be brutally honest and speculate that actually, I am not convinced this sequence is Joseki at all.
	08-21 15:02	Phillip Priddy	or you can try goshrine to compete against other go players
	08-21 12:31	Brilliant	This (or a number of other sequences) are playable for white as a continuation, but are not really joseki any more.
	08-20 13:58	Brilliant	Whilst not common, this move is played regularly in professional games, even when neither player has any supporting stones.
	08-19 12:11	Brilliant	In what sense is this a good move?
	08-14 09:52	DarkSycthe	Why is this a mistake?
	08-14 01:35		Best response?
	08-14 01:35		From a professional game. What are the ideas behind this move?
	08-13 13:13	Brilliant	According to my GoGoD disc, there is no instance in which any professional has approached the 5-5 this way. This position only occurs when p15 is played as a ladder breaker.
	08-12 14:50	Sampi	I've marked this move as ideal because... why wouldnt it be? It's been played professionally.
	08-09 07:44		Not, nessecarily bad. In KJD, black gives secure 4th line terretory.
	08-05 18:00	Brilliant	At the end of all the sequences that have been listed here, I can't help but feel that o14 looks misplaced - in some situations the position would actually make more sense were it not there at all.
	08-05 17:53	Brilliant	If you are still looking for professional game joseki, Eidogo has a decent selection of professional games and a corner pattern search facility.
	08-05 17:51	Brilliant	This the (a?) normal result when black plays 3 from a 4-4 point, but now it seems too good for him since w can't invade effectivley any more.
	08-05 17:42		I have not been able to find a good continuation for white after this move by black.
	08-05 13:07	DarkSycthe	San-san is not a trick move. I have no idea who would ever label it as such.
	08-01 09:12		Can someone add more information about this ?
	07-25 15:06	Sampi	This makes no sense...
	07-25 12:08	xiuma	I think it is not good, baxauce Black plays San San und White leaves weakness, so hi should play one more, but there is no move which is a good continuatio.
	07-24 12:35		I am quite new to Go, but I do not understand why this is a mistake. It would seem to expand white's ability to gain territory on the right and is not easy to cute in isolation.
	07-21 05:01		8p played played this against me in a 4 stone handicap game.
	07-14 17:48	adum	seems to be a new pattern from Lee Sedol: http://gogameguru.com/commentary-xie-he-lee-sedol-8th-chunlan-cup/
	07-14 14:57	DarkSycthe	Changed to mistake because of 1.
	07-05 13:10		hola
	06-29 18:14	DarkSycthe	Why is this a mistake and R10 not?
	06-28 19:38	sinse33	This sequence is correct ?S19 and S13 seems miai
	06-28 15:09	DarkSycthe	Changed to good because all of the sequences after White 2 are at least slightly good for White
	06-26 19:42		This is the way out.
	06-26 06:25		yo
	06-25 19:03		Josekipedia.com is correct! Ding,ding, ding!
	06-25 19:01		This is good for white.Black seems low on the 3rd line and 2nd line.
	06-24 10:59	DarkSycthe	changed to mistake because the only sequence provided is good for Black.
	06-21 18:57	DarkSycthe	This has been played by professionals so I don't know if you can really call this a mistake.
	06-20 16:59	Pariah.Priest	@DarkSycthe - I get where you're coming from, but I'm looking for specific situations. Not just opening moves. Perhaps even some old game records of Professional Go Players.
	06-20 11:52	DarkSycthe	This move is very slow, so maybe a simple jump such as R14 could be a good response.
	06-18 17:45	DarkSycthe	Can this be playable for Black? Black has less points than White!
	06-16 18:21	DarkSycthe	Pariah Priest - this site :)
	06-16 16:45	Pariah.Priest	Does anybody have a good site where I can get some joseki for free?
	06-10 09:55		Das fernbleiben von Schwarz nach Q3 finde ich fraglich. Schwarz profitiert meiner Meinung nach nicht ausreichend von dem zusätzlichen Zug unten rechts, um den Cut O4 auszugleichen. Zudem konnte Weiß auch noch mit C11 die Ausdehnung verhindern.
	06-07 15:25		this was a mistake, move shouldn't be deleted
	06-05 09:30		According to my database this isn't a mistake, it's the most common continuation.
	05-31 17:09		i dont know, if these are really "ideal moves", but maybe these are ideal for this kind of strategy. the corners were not clear w's territory, but open for attac. black gains influence over the center. but personally i wouldnt play this as black, too ;-)
	05-30 18:29	sinse33	Good if black have a stone on d16 ?
	05-26 10:06	DarkSycthe	Not sure if this is joseki or not but I think this works for Black.
	05-25 16:23	DarkSycthe	p17, sorry
	05-21 17:55		after a sequence like this, W would like to move T16 to S17
	05-20 14:14	まいどー(＾笑＾)/	白後手になるのでノビが良い。
	05-20 14:13	まいどー(＾笑＾)/	白味悪そうな気がします(ー。ー；)
	05-20 14:10	まいどー(＾笑＾)/	一着ある方が手厚い。
	05-20 14:09	まいどー(＾笑＾)/	シチョウで取らなくてもいいかも(=´▽｀)ゞ
	05-20 14:05	まいどー(＾笑＾)/	黒は隅を生かして外勢を得ます。
	05-20 14:01	まいどー(＾笑＾)/	一段落。右辺展開の足がかりを用意してまずまず。
	05-20 14:00	まいどー(＾笑＾)/	ハネると右辺展開か隅の生きが見合い
	05-20 13:51	まいどー(＾笑＾)/	よくある展開です。
	05-20 11:43	DarkSycthe	I think the idea is that if White doesn't respond Black can start attacking the stones. Otherwise, White can easily make eyes by capturing that stone.
	05-04 23:10	Vose	I have seen this in pro games so I would say it is Ideal?
	05-04 23:10		I have seen this in pro games so I would say it is Ideal?
	05-03 04:40	jokep	How is the continuation here? Is this move really correct?
	05-02 01:18	jokep	How is the continuation here?
	05-01 11:21		good for white ????????
	04-30 13:42		erinnert das nicht an eine variation eines 3-3 joseki nur umgedreht und mit p17 und o14 ?
	04-30 02:12		White played approach move and he got sente. It's ok.
	04-26 08:58	Shijima	why is it all blue? stupid!!!
	04-24 16:32	tails	wQ19 bS19 wT19 bO19.
	04-24 06:10	Vose	How can W answer this and get benefit?
	04-24 06:10		How can W answer this and get benefit?
	04-23 15:57	DarkSycthe	Black should cut at 1 anyway before trying the trick play on the side here.
	04-23 15:57	DarkSycthe	This doesn't allow the ladder to work., so I don't see how it is a trick play.
	04-23 15:56	DarkSycthe	This should be the branch for the trick play.
	04-21 19:32		I don't have a source, but I believe this clamp is considered too early unless W has a stone at R12 or so. I was told by a 7dan that W should extend on the top first.
	04-20 00:04	Amon	MISTAKE "for black, against the approach he can adopt solid measures such as 3, 6, and 11," [= The Number > 11
	04-19 15:15	DarkSycthe	so Black must have this ladder, right?
	04-05 22:08		pfff, qui a mis des sequences idiotes comme ça...comment ça peut être joseki ça!
	04-05 22:04		^^ c'est pas du tout un mauvais coup !! ne dites pas ce que vous ne savez pas (voir cours de guo juan, ou parties de lee changh ho ;)
	04-04 20:25	sinse33	seems a better respopnse for white
	04-03 01:49	Vose	I think that it is great to have fuseki as part of this dictionary. It is good to have and talk about all broad elements of opening patterns. This could be the best place to do that.
	04-03 01:49		I think that it is great to have fuseki as part of this dictionary. It is good to have and talk about all broad elements of opening patterns. This could be the best place to do that.
	04-03 01:29	Vose	It seems to me that white gets too much from this? What do you think? Also black seems to not be settled yet so by the time black settles white has gotten the profit. Black may tenuki but I am not sure. (Do I post this here or in the view section?)
	04-03 01:29		It seems to me that white gets too much from this? What do you think? Also black seems to not be settled yet so by the time black settles white has gotten the profit. Black may tenuki but I am not sure. (Do I post this here or in the view section?)
	03-31 07:04	mafutrct	YSY 8p: bad move, gives white chances
	03-25 21:56		by me on now
	03-22 17:49	sinse33	seems a bad move because white can play P19
	03-17 07:04		what if black q17 stead o16? less complicated it seems? then w o16, b r14
	03-13 03:46	Gelya	Yeah, an interesting move. My opponent tried it on me. I think black must have the ladder to play this way.
	03-11 23:58		Is this good for White? Later on White can destroy the corner territory easily.
	03-09 13:15		After White extends to S17, Black is in trouble. If Black extends to s16, White can cut at P16. If Black connects at P16, White can connect with the single stone at R14.
	03-08 22:37		why is it a mistake?
	03-06 14:45		why are black's moves are ideal move?after this variation,w got 4 cornors and b got.... nothing solid
	03-05 06:23		Including the option of pincering i.e. one should pincer an approach to a 4-4 stone 5% of the time or less?
	03-03 23:31	sinse33	What is the good answer about this move ?
	03-03 14:44		Seems a lot to give away for third line base making. R13 and R10 not better a line higher?
	02-27 06:25	takmak	приемлемый ход в этой позиции?
	02-27 06:24	takmak	как чёрным отвечать на этот ход?
	02-27 05:21		互角
	02-24 09:33	adum	L17 is too close to white's wall
	02-24 04:26		Isn't L17 instead of K17 ?
	02-23 12:32	blue88	No source, no tags, no description for the path. So I changed this move to question type for now.
	02-22 17:25		Now what?
	02-22 17:18		now what?
	02-18 09:28	Василий	я играл так, за черных играть трудно но и выгода есть, хотя играть надо хорошо...
	02-18 08:09	blue88	The Ko still looks like a flower ko for Black and White can't avoid it without becoming a shapeless dumpling?
	02-18 08:08	adum	i have referenced a source calling this joseki. if you want to change it, please provide a source.
	02-13 04:38	blue88	Looks pretty good for Black as well.
	02-13 04:37	blue88	Maybe this is a nice Choice for Black? So far I couldn't find a good way for White, but I didn't really go through the cross-cut variations. ;)
	02-13 04:36	blue88	This looks too good for Black imho.
	02-13 04:21	blue88	It's difficult to find study material on this Fuseki. Looking for responses to White [d16] I only found this sequence played by Kanno Kiyonori 5p vs. Shirae Haruhiko, 5p in an Oteai.
	02-12 04:52	blue88	In my game i played this Hane directly, but it's a bad choice because Black can fix his defects now.
	02-12 04:40	blue88	What happens if Black extends his side?
	02-12 04:38	blue88	After the cut I found two possible respones r17 and o16.
	02-11 23:55	blue88	Compare to Ryu Shikun vs. Cho Chikun. 58th Honinbo League 2002-11-25.
	02-10 15:25		Is this really a reasonable opening move, with no other stones on the board?
	02-07 06:40	blue88	To me it seems like pushing at [q16] first was better, because now Black has the choice of erasing the outside aji by playing [q16] himself.
	02-06 12:09		look at go seigen game versus kitani minoru, kitani played like this one
	02-06 04:21	blue88	Compare to Gu Lingyi 5p vs Zhang Wei 6p: 22nd Chinese CCTV Cup, round 4: 2010-04-09.
	02-06 04:20	blue88	Compare to Qiu Jun vs. Huang Yizhong: 12th NEC Cup semifinal 2006-11-04.
	02-04 19:10		Isn't white very weak now?
	02-04 19:08		Why is this trick play? Black does not have a very good position
	02-04 03:29	breakfast	Weird move. Never saw it before
	02-04 03:28	breakfast	It's an old joseki. The result is better for B. No ladder-breakers for White
	02-03 13:36	blue88	This move starts a fight. Many ways to continue are possible.
	01-29 13:01	jokep	What is the continuation here? I doubt that W can tenuki
	01-27 10:20	Василий	хм... белые в плюсе...могут играть в другом месте...
	01-27 08:58		bumping your head into w stone will help w's shape more than b's.I see q17, p15, o15,p14, o16 as a likely continuation.
	01-26 12:37	blue88	Used by Vanq (KGS 9d). Is it a trickplay?
	01-26 12:08	blue88	Shouldn't Black make shape like this?
	01-25 14:57		This looks solid. Why not here?
	01-25 09:24		Double hane is ko, but not a cheap ko for b.
	01-25 08:15	blue88	Is White's corner still unconditionally alive locally? What can Black do?
	01-24 15:09	blue88	Looks to me like Black can choose now? Let White make a position on the outside (Black p18) fight a ko for the corner (r14).
	01-24 15:08	blue88	What if Black cuts here?
	01-23 17:28		my guess would be to attach at either M16 or Q12.
	01-23 14:27	blue88	Changed to question type due to missing source. Added another variation with source.
	01-23 14:22	blue88	You are right. However, referring to "Making Good Shape" there is a new variation, so this move can be played again.
	01-20 13:52		How can a sequence of "good" and "ideal" white moves lead to a result that is good for black?
	01-19 06:07	Василий	пфф...тупая связка
	01-18 09:42		this should keep b out of the center, while giving b lots of territory.
	01-18 08:02		if b has strength on the top side (enough to hane at o18), then s17 will kill
	01-17 13:58	Василий	а дальше????
	01-17 05:45	blue88	I marked this move 'bad'.Don't do this exchange with a tripod group!
	01-17 05:43	blue88	After s17 White continues with r15.This is somewhat advanced technique. As a result she got free moves on the outside, which can be used later.
	01-16 00:44		хм, и что теперь делать черным?
	01-15 00:46	blue88	If Black ignores or pincers here, what does White do?
	01-15 00:42	blue88	Looks like o17 is ladder dependant because of this cut?
	01-10 15:46		I think black has life aji on both sides, that's more valuable than white territorial expectations here.Am I wrong?
	01-10 13:16	adum	what does this kill?
	01-09 21:16		isnt this bad ? where is the source
	01-09 05:41	blue88	If Black was strong around or had no ko threats, wouldn't he just play here?
	01-08 12:41		Any better options for white here? please?
	01-08 12:40		...continuation?
	01-08 12:39		A little superior for black, no?
	01-08 12:37		Looks a little better for b, no?
	01-08 12:36		I can't see anything good for white out of the resulting variations here....
	01-08 12:35		This move seems to lead to nothing good for white... is there any better response? Otherwise, should this really be considered joseki?
	01-08 12:35		This makes more sense for black, no?
	01-08 12:33		This also looks awfully small for white...
	01-08 12:32		This is ok for white? Really? Black gets the corner, and has already placed a stone negating white's wall, AND he has sente?
	01-08 12:31		slightly better for white in most outcomes, no?
	01-08 12:20		This seems to lead to an inferior result to the alternative given... should it be labelled as 'good' instead of ideal?
	01-08 12:18		Yeah, maybe as a continuation or end game sequence... too small otherwise, I would think.
	01-08 12:16		Does black need to take? Is this really balanced for white? Black got corner, and is free, and some side; white just got side...
	01-08 12:07		Is this really so much better for white? It looks possibly even for very advanced players, but white's advantage might be a little difficult to wield...
	01-08 12:02		This feels too good for black...
	01-08 12:00		Not P17? Or maybe M16?
	01-08 12:00		Woah... Jump to middle?
	01-08 11:59		How does one finish the trick, and finish refuting it?!?! Maddening...
	01-08 11:58		This does look like *black* did awesome, I now understand what the previous comment meant... How should white play here to balance this?
	01-08 11:53		I can't see how this could not be better for white than N18?
	01-06 18:51		What should be done here?
	12-29 19:16		-.- just tenuki
	12-28 19:39		i've never before seen reference to second line territory as a moyo.
	12-28 14:02		extending to p18 is a bad move because w could get a bigger moyo with p17
	12-26 00:51	blue88	Maybe like this?
	12-23 16:00	DarkSycthe	This looks good for Black. Is there any way out of this for White?
	12-21 14:21		No, this is refutation branch. black didn't fall for anything.
	12-21 12:05		so black fell for the trick and it's "slightly good for black"?!
	12-21 05:30	blue88	This sequence happened in my game. Did White play correctly and was Black E3 a mistake?
	12-20 07:03	blue88	What happens if Black plays here without preparation?
	12-18 05:07	breakfast	Wrong order for White
	12-18 05:05	breakfast	Very unusual move. More common, if the position is one line higher
	12-18 05:04	breakfast	Yes, R15 is bad move
	12-18 05:03	breakfast	Narrow extension is more solid, but everything depends on position. On empty board we cannot call K17 bad
	12-18 05:01	breakfast	Who called it bad for White?
	12-13 14:36	maba	If these moves were played in the order 1,2,3,4,7,8,5,6 then white would just have played a bad move according to that variation. How is this possible?
	12-13 11:25		Black initiates taisha and white collapses
	12-12 09:49		This happened to me in a recent game. Threw me of guard. Thus I managed to screw things up. I might have played better if it happened to me now, but still, would be nice to know what others feel should be the appropriate answer by white.
	12-07 05:16	blue88	When Kageyama said this would lead to an equal result, White had a Hoshi stone in the upper left corner, pushed once more and then played K17. So I guess he was referring to an equal result globally.When he said the result was bad for White he was referring to the position locally. Please push once more and play L17 to see why it is locally bad for White.
	12-07 05:10	blue88	Ok, this is kinda weird: 40 pages after telling the reader how even the result coming from this sequence is, he indeed says that these pushes are bad for White. (p.94)
	12-07 02:24		This is endgame move
	12-06 08:06	blue88	There are some continuation paths but none is good or ok for White, so I changed this to a question type move until someone adds a continuation that actually works. :)
	12-05 02:24	blue88	I removed this description:"Allowing black to push out on the 4th line (of victory) is bad.Source: Lessons in the fundamentals of go, by Toshiro Kageyama"Because it's wrong: Kageyama says that White's nice framework is compensated by Black walking along the line of victory SO NEITHER SIDE HAS ANYTHING TO COMPLAIN OF THIS WALK. (p. 56)
	12-02 12:37		This is an old joseki, nowadays considered slightly better for black
	11-29 11:54	blue88	38 Basic Joseki recommends this move. However, that must be a mistake in the book (or an old variation maybe), because every pro whom I heard to speak of this position (must have been at least 3 pros by now) said it's a mistake for the reasons given in the move explanations.
	11-29 11:16	jokep	no, because W would not play R19, but T18.
	11-28 12:20	blue88	I changed this to a question type because it has no source and the result is the same as in the Joseki from 38 Basic Joseki I added, except for the fact that White has cut already (but should probably save the cut for later).
	11-27 18:30	DarkSycthe	I think this move is rather bad because it gives black a nice wall and sente.
	11-23 10:08	blue88	I removed the description "forced" as this move is by no means forced. Instead White should Hane.
	11-20 07:47		if the ladder is in w favor, and b squeezes and extends, how unfavorable should it be considered?
	11-20 07:40		given that b has played an extra stone, if he has the advantage, it is slight.
	11-20 03:17	blue88	This move is possible (38 Basic Joseki p.197) but no continuation has been added yet.
	11-19 18:58	LindseyK	Slightly better for b, no?
	11-19 12:13		not joseki, this just shows the ladder. w r17 required ladder. b o18 required ladder.
	11-19 09:17		Couple things to consider in b's favor.Having p18 makes r18 more effective.As far as sides are concerned, b is on the 5th line, w on the 3rd.
	11-19 09:06		you might be right if you had to have an eye at p15. but extending down the side (or something like s15 or m14) is going to be worth more than the 2 points o16 makes.
	11-19 08:54		kill is optimistic. i'd start the attack on eye space or shape at o18/o16, or surround at n15 maybe
	11-19 08:47		this makes n17 an aim for b
	11-19 05:22	LindseyK	What? This is Joseki? If the ladder works, this is terrible for white. If the ladder fails, this is bad for black.
	11-19 05:18	LindseyK	What a shocking Joseki. It works, I guess, but every move after a certain point caught me by surprised. Isn't this slightly better for white? Seems like he got the better part of the corner, and jumped out first. I would think black also needs an equivalent jump to truly balance, making this sente for w, and this seemingly much better for w.
	11-19 05:16	LindseyK	So this is slightly better for black? Otherwise, the parent a couple back at Q16 shouldn't be labelled bad, no?
	11-19 05:15	LindseyK	Shouldn't this actually be a little better than N16? It's more balanced, and protects against potential future weaknesses, while giving slightly better influence as far as I can tell... Someone higher ranked than me care to elucidate?
	11-19 05:14	LindseyK	Yes, very much. White and black both can either reach into the corner or reach out to leave, so they're both in Miai for life.
	11-19 05:13	LindseyK	Could someone talk over the differences between 1 and 2?
	11-19 05:12	LindseyK	How does black finish off this kill?
	11-19 05:11	LindseyK	It was said that M17 and S18 are Miai for life--can we see that?
	11-19 05:07	LindseyK	the problem with this move is that S is a relatively small point compared to the massive waste that this wall becomes when black counters somewhere around L16, for instance. It's a decent follow up sometime around mid game, I think, but first focus on expanding from the wall and salvaging the situation.
	11-19 05:00		Why is this listed as bad? This seems clearly superior to the move listed as "good", as black is required to respond at 1, giving white better shape when he does kill at 2. Granted, it's terrible to begin with, but this is better than killing, and then being put in atari, letting black have all this while wrecking your shape *in sente*.
	11-18 13:26		Not a big fan of this result. I wonder if cutting at r17 without the r15/s16 exchange might not be better.
	11-18 12:15	blue88	Happened in my game, when I needed to make a base as White in enemy influence. A simple Ikken-Tobi looked too attackable to me so I played Tsuke at the pincer stone. What do you think about it?
	11-18 12:07	blue88	Happened in my game. Looks pretty bad for Black doesn't it? I think Tsuke-Osae is not Joseki when White has o16 sitting ready on the fourth line already.
	11-15 12:14	blue88	White has to be careful with r17 because there is no ideal variation (or not yet added?) that leads to a satisfying result for White.
	11-14 05:34		white is alive in the corner and has sente
	11-11 23:51	blue88	Kogo's suggests this move and I've seen it before. Added as 'good' and not ideal because I know neither source nor follow up.
	11-10 14:22		this requires a favorable ladder
	11-10 12:38	blue88	Doesn't this create a serious weakness at S15?
	11-09 14:13	blue88	I changed this type from Trick Play to Ideal, because if the ladder works, it is a very good move and not a trickplay!
	11-09 13:29	blue88	There is no positive continuation, so I changed this to a question type.
	11-08 17:24		i have a move that i always do and start this same way and then next white move wood be r17how is that?
	11-04 17:06	blue88	Kogo's says White can still live in the corner with [r17], but how could she?
	11-03 09:19		i would suggest r13. If s16/17 get cut off, then the s17 r17 exchange is bad for w.
	10-31 00:54		I see black P17 played pretty often here. It might be useful for someone who knows more than I to work out some variations around that...
	10-26 12:53	blue88	I'm not sure if White needs some reinforcement to play this move, but basically it exists.
	10-25 06:57	blue88	Played in 35th Japanese Meijin, title match #12010-09-01: Takao Shinji 9p vs. Iyama Yuuta 9p
	10-24 15:07	takmak	как правильно ответить на этот ход Б?
	10-22 09:56	blue88	Since the continuation is not complete and there is no source, I changed this to question type.
	10-21 09:40		What is black's best response to this move?
	10-20 12:31	blue88	Black has to defend but the book doesn't say how. I think this is fine.
	10-20 12:07	blue88	Played on KGS by Flashback to prevent White from connecting her stones.
	10-20 04:37	blue88	Compare to 12th Nongshim Cup Round 3: Xie He 7p vs Lee Sedol 9p.
	10-20 03:37	blue88	Compare to 12th Nongshim Cup Round 3: Lee Sedol 9p vs Xie He 7p.
	10-19 05:12	blue88	Is this good enough to prevent having a cutting point at q17?
	10-18 07:33	blue88	Compare to 12th Nongshim Cup rd1, Lee Sedol 9P vs Wang Xi 9P
	10-17 14:06	blue88	Played 01.09.2010 in the 6th Korean Prices Information final: Lee Sedol 9p vs Lee Changho 9p.
	10-16 03:07	blue88	What does Black have here?
	10-14 00:05	blue88	Played in: 6th Korean Prices Information Cup, final 22010-09-15: Lee Sedol 9pvs. Lee Changho 9p
	10-13 07:44	blue88	What about this path? Is it Joseki?
	10-12 10:50	blue88	s16 doesn't work I added the punishment given in Graded Go Problems for Beginners Vol. 4.
	10-12 03:49	blue88	Does this move need the ladder that follows Black q18?
	10-12 03:46	blue88	Looks like White needs the ladder to punish this move? What does she do if she doesn't have the ladder?
	10-12 01:27	blue88	Lee Sedol played this move against Lee Changho in 6th Korean Prices Information Cup, final 1.I added the continuation that followed as Question sequence.
	10-12 01:25	blue88	Lee Sedol played this move against Lee Changho in 6th Korean Prices Information Cup, final 1.I added the continuation as question until they played Tenuki.
	10-12 01:12	blue88	Compare to 6th Korean Prices Information Cup, final 12010-09-01: Lee Changho 9p vs. Lee Sedol 9p
	10-11 14:02	blue88	"Hard to say who's better" (Hwang In-Seong, 7d)
	10-11 14:02	blue88	Just return to Joseki?
	10-11 13:59	blue88	Many difficult variations here.
	10-11 12:24	blue88	Why would Black play here? Looks too small?
	10-11 08:48	breakfast	Tennuki is best for White, because his corner stone cannot be killed
	10-11 08:44	breakfast	Fujisawa Shuko played it first in Kisei titlematch (in Chinese fuseki, against Cho Chikun)
	10-11 08:43	breakfast	It looks good for White
	10-11 08:43	breakfast	Very rare move for Black. I heard the opinion that it's wrong
	10-11 08:42	breakfast	Really great result for Black!
	10-11 08:40	breakfast	I heard the opinion that it's better for White. Nice wall and sente hane at T16
	10-11 08:35	breakfast	Shape is not good, but B's corner is too small.I feel, White is better here
	10-07 13:08	blue88	More detail about this (why J16 without another push first is bad and possible sequences after m14) in Jennies KGS+ Lecture at 02.10.2010 from Minute 59 onwards.
	10-02 16:07	DarkScythe	I have changed this position to a bad move
	09-30 15:00	blue88	Is this just the punishment if White doesn't have the ladder? Or is it really Joseki with Black continuing at Q19?
	09-30 14:13	blue88	It's a trade. Cornel wasn't sure how to evaluate it.
	09-29 09:53	blue88	Sequence played in the 11th Chinese City League. I added it as question path, since no other variations are here yet.
	09-28 14:55	Sampi	This move is not good, as Black can get pressured at P16.
	09-22 18:17	DarkScythe	This is not necessarily a good move (possible timing issues) but the idea is to make the tiger mouth shape over-concentrated. I will agree this move seems somewhat odd, maybe premature.
	09-22 18:15	DarkScythe	See the 2-2 point move. Apparently this is inferior for white, although I think it looks ok (though not especially good either)
	09-21 11:34	blue88	I deleted the label 'slightly favourable for black' as Jiang Mingjiu, 7p said about this position that it is hard to say if it's good for Black or good for White. 'It's just a joseki.'
	09-20 14:05	blue88	Compare to 2010 special Meijin tournament: Lee Changho 9p vs Gu Li 9p.
	09-20 14:05	blue88	Looks like Black can still get a ko.
	09-20 13:54	blue88	Compare to 2010 special Meijin tournament: Lee Changho 9p vs Gu Li 9p.
	09-20 13:51	blue88	Compare to 2010 special Meijin tournament: Lee Changho 9p vs Gu Li 9p
	09-19 13:46	DarkScythe	The 2-5 point is usually only played against a hoshi stone with an extension.
	09-18 09:50	DarkScythe	Seriously? Slightly better for White? White has no eyes, a floating group with terrible shape, Black has sente, and Black has the corner. Am I missing something or does Black seem to have a huge advantage here?
	09-18 09:46	DarkScythe	and how does black continue?
	09-18 09:43	DarkScythe	White needs another move to stop B p16
	09-17 18:13	adum	i think you should add the variations. they look valid to me too. of course, i'm not a pro either :)
	09-15 10:41	blue88	Compare to 2010 special Meijin tournament: Gu Li 9p vs. Iyama Yuuta 9p
	09-11 14:41		ой, понял! а я тупо дзёсеки долбил в 016((
	09-11 14:38		время от времени встречаю этот ход. почему он плохой и как за него наказывать?:*
	09-10 13:01		totally wrong, it seem this move exist only with a komoku
	09-10 09:29	blue88	Deleted. Please start Joseki in upper right corner and stop adding whole games...
	09-09 11:30	blue88	"Ladder dependent for W. After the attach - hane underneath - crosscut, is there a way for W to play if the ladder is good for B?"This Question was asked in the move description: No there is not, that's why White should not play the second line Hane if the ladder doesn't work.
	09-08 13:31	gfoot	Why does white play here? After black's response, white's M17 stone is very weak.
	09-08 13:20		For handicap games white passes until all stones are set up.
	09-07 15:01	adum	it's okay to add some fuseki, but this is not the place to input whole games. please go to the Games section for that.
	09-07 13:43	blue88	Compare to 2010 special Meijin tournament: Gu Li, 9p vs. Lee Changho, 9p
	09-07 13:38	blue88	Compare to 2010 special Meijin tournament: Gu Li, 9p vs. Lee Changho, 9p
	09-06 11:20		White has sente and a few points in the corner, but Black's wall is like a block of concrete, controlling a large part of the board.This result is regarded as good for Black locally, but is often White's best choice, nonetheless.
	09-03 21:30		I have added lines 1 and 2. The situation seems iffy for black.
	09-03 03:14		Like this black is able to "hane at the head of two stones" which gives him the lead in this "race". Just compare with the joseki. In Joseki black is pressed down, here white is pressed down. Difference is really huge.
	08-31 08:23	blue88	This exchange was played in the 35th Gosei final rd.5 between Sakai Hideyuji, 7p and Cho U, 9p.
	08-31 08:02	blue88	This is the continuation, that followed in 35th Gosei final rd.5
	08-30 15:58		it's a settled complicated position with a running battle? aren't these tags practically mutually exclusive?
	08-30 15:19	DarkScythe	I think White can just extend along the side (for example Q10). That way Black won't want to play an enclosure (too overconcentrated) but White can still invade.
	08-30 13:09	blue88	I removed the trickplay label because of Alexandre Dinerchtein's (3p) comment on the position:'We cannot call it trickplay, better to say: new joseki.'
	08-30 11:14		This was played by Cho U against Sakai Hideyuki in 1020 Gosie title. IT was the final game and Cho lost it.
	08-30 04:22	blue88	Compare to 35th Japanese Gosei, title match #4 Sakai Hideyuki, 7p vs. Cho U, 9p
	08-26 07:44	santa c	what if w has this stone prior to the corner sequence? how would the sequence change? sorry i'm not sure if i should be asking it here ^^*
	08-26 05:44	blue88	Played in 35th Japanese Gosei, title match #3 Cho U vs Sakai Hideyuki
	08-26 05:34	blue88	Compare to 35th Japanese Gosei, title match #3, Cho U 9p vs. Sakai Hideyuki 7p
	08-25 14:26	blue88	This move is pretty useless as long as it does not give any variation or any closer description of the surroundings. I'll delete it for now.
	08-25 11:45	blue88	Compare to 35th Japanese Gosei, title match #2 Sakai Hideyuki 7p vs Cho U 9p
	08-25 00:37		ideal move
	08-24 13:15	blue88	Compare to 35th Japanese Gosei, title match #1: Cho U, 9p vs Sakai Hideyuki, 7p
	08-24 13:10	blue88	Compare to 35th Japanese Gosei, title match #1: Cho U, 9p vs Sakai Hideyuji, 7p
	08-21 19:02	DarkScythe	this isn't really joseki. This is more like fuseki.
	08-21 19:02	DarkScythe	I know this is a bad move because it's over-concentrated (see 3-3 enclosures) but there are times when I have played this when I was strong on both sides and around the central area. Perhaps it should be labeled a good move like the R16 move (which is also highly inefficient) since it can be useful in certain situations
	08-18 16:56	DarkScythe	If white has a moyo along the top I think this can be playable. Note it's white's turn right now too
	08-18 14:56	DarkScythe	perhaps the best counter is to just tenuki. This works because black has no good follow-up here
	08-15 08:03	DarkScythe	Anyone want to show continuations why this is so bad?
	08-15 07:51	DarkScythe	Just because this isn't a conventional move doesn't mean it's bad. Just like tengen, it hasn't been explored much and therefore you can't really say that this is objectively a bad move. In my opinion, this should either be labeled as good or otherwise completely removed because of the lack of known variations and continuations.
	08-13 22:41		How white must play in this position?
	08-11 21:57		This is Chinese Fuseki, not Joseki. I feel like this doesn't belong in this database. All continuations from here on are even less relevant as far as I can tell, but I'll leave that to someone else to delete if desired.
	08-11 21:55		I deleted this entire line because there was no citation. Also, whole board positions aren't really joseki.
	08-11 21:53		Anon: You are indeed correct. Though R16 also seems inefficient. Even if you enclosed the corner, black has his stone hindering your expansion along the right side. Perhaps the star point is the best in this case.
	08-11 13:43	blue88	Out of all possible plays in the corner, I think with Q17 you chose the worst. Now Black can approach at Q15 and exert power from his Q10 stone as he planned to do.
	08-10 15:27	DarkScythe	only played when there are stones in the vicinity around r10. Otherwise it would be much too cramped
	08-03 18:26		結局小目打っちゃうんやで
	08-03 18:25		大斜百変やで
	08-03 18:24		目外し最高やで
	08-02 05:01		Even if w lives its tiny, just make sure b gets sente and all is good.
	08-01 08:46	adum	yes, White will play P16 immediately
	08-01 03:57	Nhane	White must play S19 no ?I mean, he won't seriously tenuki here ?
	07-31 16:18	DarkScythe	I have seen this played before (with Chinese fuseki) and the result doesn't seem that bad to me. Anybody want to explain why this favors white?
	07-31 16:17	DarkScythe	This isn't necessarily a bad move. It can be played when there is a Chinese fuseki going on. If black replies with 1 (P17) then white plays r15 and happily takes the side (It's good as far as invasions go)
	07-31 10:08	DarkScythe	I think this move should be marked as a mistake. If you compare the end result with the other variation where White plays the correct move of q13, here the q14 stone is too close whereas a stone at q13 would be a bit better placed.
	07-25 14:11	blue88	A KGS 4d showed me this sequence, in a situation where Sente was important...
	07-25 08:23	njpadinha	I'm confused. Why isn't there a joseki continuation listed for black at this point?
	07-25 03:24		s17 then?this is stupid joseki!
	07-25 03:05		what if w play n16?????
	07-25 03:01		then?
	07-24 12:26		black can play s16! bad joseki
	07-24 12:11		lol
	07-16 06:04	blue88	Compare to 53. Kuksu Final Round 1: Hong Ki Pyo[4p] vs Yi Chang Ho[9p].
	07-08 23:00		Well i have added all Variations i know, ladder and non-ladder cases, for both center , influence right or top variations by white, as well as special case's, this move isn't bad, all variations end with black sente.
	07-07 17:41		XD
	07-05 10:23	blackmoa	After 3-3 Black looks kind of overconcentrated
	06-28 06:42	blue88	Anybody knows how to handle this move properly? I can't see a really good response for White yet this move is hardly played afaik.
	06-28 06:41	blue88	Compare to [2010-04-07] 38th Korean Myeongin, preliminary: Lee Sedol 9p vs Park Jungwhan 7p
	06-27 15:41	blue88	Compare to 11 October 1989 Weiqi Centre, Beijing 3rd Ten Strongest Round 238: Liu Xiaoguang, 1p vs Cao Dayuan, 1p
	06-27 15:39	blue88	Compare to 28 April 2001 North American Masters Tournament Challengers' Round: Yang Huiren, 1p vs Yi Hosuk, 1p
	06-27 15:39	blue88	I could hardly find anything on this move so I added two pro game variations beginning with a question type move.
	06-26 04:39		Hi, Isn't too good for black ? I think White must extend to Q10 to end this joseki.Black take the corner, the sente and probably a good position to take the North side with K16 or K17.
	06-22 19:05		How does white continue in this shape?
	06-19 17:32		O Meien mentions this variation in his book "Zone Press Park" but suggests current research refutes it -- anyone heard of that research?
	06-17 07:58	blue88	Compare to 2nd BCcard Cup World Baduk Championship, round 4: Lee Sedol 9p vs. Park Yeonghun 9p
	06-17 07:53	blue88	Can somebody tell me the continuation if B blocks at S15 instead?
	06-17 06:53	blue88	Compare to 2nd BCcard Cup World Baduk Championship, round 4: Lee Sedol 9p vs. Park Yeonghun 9p
	06-15 05:46	blue88	Compare to 36th Japanese Gosei, preliminary: Otake Hideo 9p vs. Komatsu Fujio 8p
	06-14 08:20	blue88	Compare to Charity game for 2010 Haiti earthquake: Lee Sedol 9p vs. Lee Changho 9p
	06-14 08:09	blue88	Compare to Charity game for 2010 Haiti earthquake: Lee Sedol 9p vs. Lee Changho 9p.
	06-11 06:02	blue88	Compare to 36th Japanese Gosei, preliminary: Otake Hideo 9p vs. Mitani Tetsuya 6p
	06-09 07:26	blue88	Compare to 23rd Fujitsu Cup round 2: Takao Shinji 9p vs. Park Yeonghun 9p
	06-08 10:30	blue88	Compare to 15th LG Cup, round 1: Gu Li 9p vs. Lee Sedol 9p
	06-07 14:57	thucom	The only advantage I can see to this spot is that it should force a response from black. Since black played the center position in the first place, it should be a valued position to black.
	06-07 14:39	thucom	Hmm, no second move. I'm guessing that white would play like they were black next and the effect would be not felt until later in the game. But in the interest in making things interesting, how would white go about neutralizing this position?
	06-04 08:03		If white does not have a stone on the third line, where should black push?
	06-03 10:11	Uzmest	What is the purpose of this peep ? I don't think it should be played systematically, if at all
	06-02 00:21	blue88	Compare to 5th Korean Wonik Cup Siptan final 2: Lee Changho 9p vs. Park Jungwhan 5p
	05-31 05:33	tails	Please don't create mirrored positions. Visit [path:pdttqf] instead.
	05-30 23:39	blue88	Compare to 29th Korean KBS Cup winner section round 1: Kang Jiseong 8p vs. Park Jungwhan 7p
	05-28 00:50	blue88	Compare to 8th Chunlan Cup Korean preliminary: Kim Jiseok 6p vs. Park Jungwhan 7p
	05-27 02:38	blue88	Compare to 2010 Shanghai World Expo special: Lee Sedol 9p vs. Chang Hao 9p
	05-26 02:44	blue88	Compare to 6th Korean Prices Information Cup, preliminary Yun Junsang 7p vs. Lee Sedol 9p
	05-26 00:03	blue88	Compare to 8th Chunlan Cup, round 1 Lee Sedol 9p vs. Zhou Junxun 9p
	05-26 00:00	blue88	It is indeed ridicolous.
	05-25 01:06	blue88	Compare to 23rd Fujitsu Cup round 1 Kim Jiseok 7p vs. Alexander Dinerchtein 3p
	05-20 07:20	kochi	this allows ko... w should just live
	05-18 05:34	blue88	Compare with 8th Chunlan Cup, round 1: Lee Sedol 9p vs. Zhou Junxun 9p
	05-17 02:53	kochi	High Chinese opening
	05-16 22:15	kochi	A pro on KGS has claimed that this, or extension on the 4th line is the right move 95% of the time.
	05-15 16:07	tails	Done. Please see [path:pdttpf].
	05-15 14:47	tails	I'll delete this node, and move all the children into Q14.
	05-12 15:58	tails	Hmm... Strictly speaking, this move should be at R12, like the first move is at Q16 and not at Q4, according to the guideline of this site. Should I flip the positions (this one and all the continuations)?
	05-11 07:15	Marking	Depends on the postion, if black wants a fight, then P17(taisha) is definetly better.
	05-10 07:27		What is "san-san break move"?
	05-03 10:43		..
	04-25 07:29		actually its really simple, when you for example just play on the 3-3 point and than let black run along on the second line.White gains lots of influence and black just gets very little territory, which is worth not really more than sero.
	04-25 05:10		To a 15k this seems like really dificult move to counter with white
	04-22 16:54		This leads to a big exchange: the corner for strenght. But locally looks better for white (the corner is big).Remember, however, that this turns out as a result of black's choice upon blocking at p15. In other words, if black played this way is because he wanted to stress the outside and give up the corner.
	04-22 16:51		Similar to another well-known variation, but not white's position is somewhat better. In any case, black's satisfied and locally the result favours him.
	04-22 16:50		1 or 2?
	04-22 16:49		This leads to a big exchange: the corner for strenght. But locally looks better for white.
	04-18 17:08	tails	I've changed the label from "Good for white" to "Good for black". You can also do that.
	04-18 16:30		Erreur de traduction ..... pas "Bon pour blanc" mais "Mauvais pour blanc"
	04-18 03:45	tails	This move violates the symmetry guideline, and has no continuation.
	04-15 14:00	tails	Please see [path:pdqdqcpc] instead.
	04-13 11:59	tails	I think wO10 is somewhat slack, and Black has many good extension moves along the edge.
	04-13 11:03	adum	this position is joseki, so it's equal.
	04-12 12:28		I added this variation to show why black shouldn't play S18. I'm not sure about the continuation but it seems OK.
	04-07 15:04		Deutch???
	04-07 10:06		for one, S16 should get you back to [path:pdqfqhqcqdpcocrdrercqeodncrfoesend]O17 and S14 look interesting
	04-07 10:03		for one, S16 should get you back to http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:pdqfqhqcqdpcocrdrercqeodncrfoesendO17 and S14 look interesting
	04-05 10:55		Does anyone know the proper white refutation of this move? The cut at P16 no longer succeeds at killing the R16 group, as it would have if black had played S16
	04-04 00:13		While its true that black can create a wall and gain center influence, you must remember that white has a living group in the corner while black does not. This means that if timed correctly, white could attack black's eyeless wall and gain a lot of territory while black is busy running away.
	03-31 06:12		This is a trick move, I think - The 2-2 stone is vulnerable, but black's idea is to sacrifice it and gain a strong wall on the outside while holding white down to a tiny corner.
	03-31 02:57		Black might think that this move is clever and that white is pincered, but this is not the case. Black's S18 stone is no vulnerable and white can happily take the corner insuring life. This leaves black's Q16 stone extremely vulnerable to attack and white can exploit it easily. Playing on the S18 line should be something you do only after playing at least one corner, but even then its not a move you want to make unless you are extremely confident in your ability.
	03-30 17:37	tails	That's interesting. Can you show some continuation?
	03-30 16:09	Jonas Jermann	Dieser Zug führt zumindest zu einem gleichwertigen Resultat oder sogar zu einem guten Resultat für Schwarz. Ich würde in dementsprechend nicht als "beste Widerlegung" bezeichnen...
	03-28 20:35		2008-01-29 zhang li vs zhang weiwei plays the kick in the opening and has no stones nearby. Many other pro games that played this move also...... It settles the group quickly. The label "bad move" itself could be incorrect in regards to go. This is really over simplifing the game a bit.
	03-26 02:10	Uzmest	It is bad if black does not have a stone or more around k16, pro say so, every high dan will tell you that too
	03-24 07:14		If this is a bad move then why does everyone on tygem use it? A lot of the joseki books out of japan are just trash. I wonder about this one also??
	03-24 05:57		very succesful with low digit kyu in kgs.S16 is both the intuitive and loosing move.
	03-24 03:09		this seems to put white in a bad place
	03-23 04:14		This is joseki !
	03-21 18:26		surely, black will cut and white will have hard time defending his two stones. Hane seems risky.
	03-20 22:37		I agree with the other adum and Marking here, the 'kick' here is generally played when there is a stone at the q10/r10 area. White from here does not have 100% life, but is very close to it. (Which is why the stone at around R10 is needed)
	03-17 19:40		How does White continue in this position? White needs to take care of both of her groups.
	03-16 13:56		this looks like a sequence from a handicap game. i think w has gained a little. the b stone on the right isn't nearly the worry for w as the w stone on top for b.
	03-15 13:43	tails	Let's add continuations to [path:qdttod] instead of here, if any.
	03-13 10:40	tails	I think that this position and [path:peqcoc] should be merged. And, for the other position is better developed than this one, I think the continuations of this one should be moved there.Ryo33, will you add your positions again there?
	03-12 12:14		s16 ist manchmal möglich
	03-10 23:15	tails	And, to follow the symmetry guideline, this move should be at L10 rather than K9.
	03-10 23:12	tails	This cannot be a joseki. I'd vote for deletion.
	03-09 21:09	gnos	I looked this up on Kogo's. I'm calling this joseki for the time being.
	03-09 21:02	gnos	I still see no answer to my question here. The problem I see is that it looks to me like white gets an inferior position at this point. If s16 cramps white's style, what is the point of the avalanche joseki? As a 6 kyu player, I can never get to it as white because my opponents will all S16. Is that joseki? If so, what is the follow up?
	03-04 04:04	mafutrct	Joseki = common sequence, it does not have to be a kakari.
	03-04 04:00	mafutrct	Oh it's quite common :) Just an exchange
	03-04 04:00	mafutrct	Afaik, black is never strong around Q10 because then Q16 would be a mistake in direction.
	03-04 03:57	mafutrct	Imagine black not playing the hane. That results in two things:1. White is a bit less strong (preverable in midgame)2. White can play S15 to get big yose. Black S15 prevents exactly that.
	03-04 03:56	mafutrct	birdwm: afaik, yes, it's a one way street after Q16.LindseyK: Afaik, every variation that contains a white atari at R17 is called avalanche.
	03-04 03:54	mafutrct	This should be fine for both players.
	03-04 03:53	mafutrct	There are good responses, it just was not added yet.
	03-04 03:50	mafutrct	After S15, black S14 becomes gote, and white can tenuki. Without S15, black S14 hurts a lot more.
	03-04 03:49	mafutrct	No, as white can prevent a very big yose at b S17 and the black shape still has holes. Also, white got very strong, moves like b R9 are not much of a threat anymore.
	03-04 03:48	mafutrct	It's good shape. Other moves here usually result in worse shape and/or do not satisfy the initialjoseki idea (building influence...).
	03-04 03:46	mafutrct	"Doesn't white need an equivalent jump to balance this out for an end to the Joseki?"- no, as S18 and M17 are miai for life, so this extending would be only yose, and not particulary big.
	02-26 18:06	tails	This move must be a pass, and all the continuations are shown under [path:qepc] (opposite color, flipped position). Sorry but I'll delete this node.
	02-26 17:54	tails	Done. Please let me know if anything went wrong.
	02-26 15:52	tails	I'll transfer this move from D4 to Pass later.
	02-26 14:51	LindseyK	What an interesting, bizarre sequence.
	02-26 14:50	LindseyK	There are many variations, how can we know which is the avalanche joseki from here? Could someone indicate that?
	02-26 14:50	LindseyK	Perhaps there are special cases where that is true, but allowing a forcing move like that at any other time would be too damaging to be settled as Joseki.
	02-26 14:47	LindseyK	endgame sequence? ....
	02-26 14:47	LindseyK	That would just mean there were other variants than the one shown that are not yet present.
	02-26 14:46	LindseyK	How is this a masacre? White doesn't have some awesome wall on the outside or anything... and black has a solid corner, that, if left like this, can still extend from the fourth line.
	02-26 14:43	LindseyK	Hold on, the three space jump is considered "ideal", but there is no good response to it being invaded? um, hello?
	02-26 14:42	LindseyK	How did that play at S15 help?
	02-26 14:41	LindseyK	Isn't this too good for b?
	02-26 14:39	LindseyK	This is really ideal? This moves seems really random. I'd love to see an explanation...
	02-26 14:33	LindseyK	This sequence is in the Ear Reddening Game, but I've read that Shusaku made a mistake, though from what I've read it appears Inseki made one first--his last move should have theoretically been at P14, no? This is how the 8dan played it, though, so....
	02-26 14:28	LindseyK	I'm no expert, but as far as I can tell, this is very necessary. -8K KGS
	02-26 14:27	LindseyK	This is my speculation on how this would ideally continue... seems fairly obvious, perhaps there's something better to do? As it was left, black was unsettled, so I just thought I'd post why--thus this thread.
	02-26 14:19	LindseyK	There are problems with this branch... an ideal move disappears part of the way through? This sequence perhaps should not be labelled "ideal"....
	02-26 14:15	LindseyK	This is really considered Ideal? How is an approach on the 2 line a possibly "ideal" move? Surely something is missing...
	02-22 11:39		This move is ok
	02-21 13:43	adum	it's unclear to me if [src:21st] thinks this is an ideal move or not.
	02-20 07:54	mafutrct	This move and all continuations is a 30k level mistake - do we REALLY need to include this??
	02-19 08:40		in isolation, probably b is better as he has solidified territory. But in a position where a b moyo has just been erased ...
	02-18 12:16		which side comes out of this in a better position?
	02-14 20:26		chantrealol how do u even save a game
	02-14 20:22		this has helped me with my go ranking...
	02-14 20:20		i don't get it
	02-14 08:26	tails	Done. Please let me know if anything went wrong.
	02-12 13:55	adum	hard to imagine. i will delete it.
	02-12 13:44		is this really a move that a strong player might consider?
	02-12 12:48		Kosumi!
	02-12 07:28	gnos	Isn't this Joseki? I won't relabel this until I find a source. But I believed this to be joseki up until now.
	02-11 18:40	adum	this move is not a mistake, unlike White's previous move
	02-11 18:40	adum	[jiot] actually says that black has influence here
	02-11 16:42	birdmw	since there is no alternative line, wouldnt the avalance have been started before?
	02-11 01:40	gnos	If R15 is a mistake then it should be made clear how this is a refutation. Honestly, aside from their being better plays than R15, I can't see why it's a mistake. The best argument you can make I believe is that it's aji keshi. But then that should be explained in the commentary.
	02-10 22:00	tails	To follow the guideline, this move should be at S17 instead of R18. I'll flip the move and all the continuations later.
	02-10 15:10	yoyoma	I think this leads to unconditional life.
	02-10 07:26		I think you will find b l17 / w k16much harder for b than just starting at b m17 / w n18 / b k16(or k18)
	02-09 21:16	Konstantin V. Pleshakov	Почему черные забирают угол? Я ошибаюсь или белые еще могут выжить, сходив в сан-сан?
	02-09 15:06	mafutrct	Yea, of course, but sometimes it's still better to play here instead of Q12 or R11 as usual. At least this move was played by pros. I'd still vote to flag this as "bad" with an explanation that it is _sometimes_ good.
	02-06 04:17	breakfast	Black can win the race, but it makes W too thick outside.So, usually it's bad for B
	02-06 04:14	breakfast	Black plays here, if there is no way to attack White's group.If it's possible to attack W - it's too slack. In this case (with J17) it's better to answer actively by P18 or empty triangle at Q17
	02-06 04:12	breakfast	The whole pattern is outdated. You cannot find it in recent pro games.White's wall in gote is not good enough usually
	02-06 04:10	breakfast	But where can you find modern pro games with this pattern?Last time I saw it played in 70's
	02-06 04:08	breakfast	Just outdated. Cannot call it bad
	02-06 04:06	breakfast	Black can just give up 2 stones
	02-06 03:58	breakfast	70.88.111.22 is right
	02-04 18:03		What happens if white pushes through immediately instead of playing 1 or 2?
	02-04 10:08		problem with q11 is the s16/r17 exchange. Without the exchange, If say B jumps in at r12, W r11 followed later by R17 would allow W to effectively sacrifice r14. But after the exchange, W could not find life on the inside.
	02-04 09:16	mafutrct	I'm not going to say this is a good move, but it can probably be played with a low shimari in the lower right.
	02-03 18:00	tails	So, the essence of my question is: Is bT19 really a trick move and wS18 really tricked? If this position is good for white, then the "trick" doesn't hold.
	02-03 11:26	mafutrct	This situation is utterly insane.
	02-02 17:34	tails	Isn't this position good for White, especially compared to [path:qcpd]?
	02-01 17:41	gnos	I'm unlabeling this as bad move until someone provides a refutation. A suboptimal move may not be joseki but it cannot be called a "bad move" unless there is a clear refutation of it.
	02-01 12:53	tails	I have transferred this move from D4 to Pass.
	02-01 12:27	tails	Ok, I have transferred this move from P17 to R15.
	01-31 16:25	przprobs	If white plays like this, he is just giving black sente.
	01-31 16:16	przprobs	Q13 is a mistake unless black has more stones on the side because it leaves the group open.
	01-31 16:15	przprobs	attaching here is usually thought to be too defensive.
	01-31 16:13	przprobs	attaching at n16 is seen as less favorable except in emergency situations because normally attaching against a weak stone is bad.
	01-31 16:10	przprobs	look at l17 for the continued variation
	01-31 15:57	przprobs	If white doesn't have the ladder, he is in deep trouble. If the ladder is good for white, the result is still not good.
	01-31 15:55	przprobs	For modern pros, to protect the cutting point is the only move.
	01-31 15:50	przprobs	Blacks thickness is not that great because of the bad aji with R14.
	01-31 15:47	przprobs	White plays like this if the right side is important, like in the Chinese Opening.
	01-31 15:42		also, the peep at o14 would be the main reason why o16 is considered not as good as o15.
	01-31 15:36		modern pros believe that o15 is better than o16 because white does not need the eye shape o16 gives, and o15 is more solid.
	01-31 15:29		White plays this way if he has stones in the top left corner, making a nice extention.
	01-30 20:38	tails	To follow the guideline, this move must be at R15.
	01-30 20:24	tails	Because Black can be tricked, like [path:pdrbqcrcrdqbpbqeqdocpc].
	01-30 19:45		Why is this tricky?
	01-29 11:55	tails	This move should be a pass instead of playing at D4.
	01-29 01:26	breakfast	Yes, it's a joseki. Usually B plays like this, if he wants to fight, when his position is thick
	01-29 01:24	breakfast	This result is usually good for White. Big aji at R13 later
	01-28 19:29	hyperpape	Played by Yamashita Keigo in the second game of the 34th Kisei. No idea if it's joseki or what. White had a low solid position in the upper left, black had a shimari in the lower right.
	01-28 18:58	hyperpape	Yamashita Keigo and Cho U played this way in the first game of the 34th Kisei. I don't know if either of the past two movesare good or joseki. Cho, playing black, won the game by resignation.
	01-28 10:44	tails	I have changed the type from Good to Ideal based on: [src:shojiten,Hoshi Joseki, p. 84]. The book says that this move is honte.
	01-28 09:29	tails	I have changed the type from Ideal to Bad based on: [src:shojiten,Hoshi Joseki, p. 201].
	01-26 07:55	tails	I have changed the type from Bad to Ideal based on [src:shojiten,Hamete, p. 85].
	01-24 09:16	mafutrct	source: mingjiu lesson
	01-24 09:16	mafutrct	source: mingjiu lesson
	01-24 09:16	mafutrct	source: mingjiu lesson
	01-24 09:04	mafutrct	source: today's mingjiu lecture on kgs.
	01-24 07:43	tails	Nice job. I think they are fuseki rather than joseki, and should not be included in a joseki database. If there are sequences starting in the center of the board and we call them joseki, then they should be local in the center, like bK10-wL8-bJ8 ([src:shojiten,Fuseki, p. 236]) and bL10-wTenuki-bJ10 ([src:shojiten,Fuseki, p. 237]), but I think they have not been fully evaluated as joseki.
	01-24 07:07	tails	I have added a description (in Japanse) and some continuations. Hopefully the Question is settled.
	01-23 01:04	Andre Engels	This settles the corner for the time being: There are no big points left to play.
	01-23 00:48	Andre Engels	Black's thickness is impressive, but white should still be happy about living comfortably after having played 2 moves less in this corner.
	01-22 06:18	mafutrct	isnt this joseki?
	01-22 06:11	mafutrct	i deleted some variations starting from tengen. they were empty anyway. does not make much sense to have tengen anyway in this database.... (?)
	01-22 06:09	mafutrct	about the description: this definitely is an "approach" by definition of that word. i think there was a translation mistake, maybe the author meant that this is not an "approach aiming at the corner"
	01-22 06:06	mafutrct	this move was discussed in detail at http://mafutrct.wordpress.com/2009/06/16/mafu-studies-joseki-15/. I asked various mid to high dan players, so there should be no retarded mistakes. however, it was never verified by a pro or book. should i still add the variations? btw, the final result was that this move is 0.5pt worse than joseki.
	01-22 06:03	mafutrct	but it leaves a weakness, so you have to consider it carefully. anyway, this is already very deep in the variation, so of course you xan implement different ideas here depending on the board.
	01-22 06:02	mafutrct	yes p14 is also possible.
	01-21 23:39	adum	This is joseki according to [src:sps,p. 141].
	01-21 23:09	Andre Engels	Looks bad - white is strengthening the stone she should be looking to attack. I can find one professional game where this is played, but in that case there was a strong black wall as the backup along the 6th line.
	01-21 18:02	Andre Engels	I think P14 would be a better move.
	01-21 03:33	tails	Hi, 220.255.7.* user. We don't need this move in the database. This move is rude only as an opening move, and just a symmetry as a joseki move.
	01-20 13:28	mafutrct	i don't see a problem with tenuki..
	01-20 13:07	mafutrct	?
	01-20 12:36	mafutrct	i'm not sure about the result. i think it was ko? anyway it is not optimal.
	01-20 12:34	mafutrct	i'm not sure about the order of this move. inseong made a mistake in his documents sadly.
	01-20 12:23	mafutrct	I thought this is a bad move?!
	01-20 11:33	mafutrct	these statistics are far to small to be considered, i think
	01-20 11:23	mafutrct	Black is a bit thin
	01-20 10:55		well if b r15 fails ;)(i think it depends on the ladder?)
	01-18 16:49	tails	And it was me, forgot to login.
	01-18 16:47		I have deleted all those variations starting from white. (Actually, they all had no continuation, only one white stone for each.) Let's not have them unless there is a good reason.
	01-16 21:01	adum	this is a mirror of the other 4-5 point. as we only show variations down and to the right of the diagonal, i am deleting this starting point.
	01-16 13:54	Henry Hemming	This joseki leaves white in gote.
	01-16 05:06	tails	The book says this is greatly good for black, so I labeled "Good for black" again.
	01-15 23:53	Andre Engels	Played too rarely to choose among variations.
	01-15 23:50	Andre Engels	Played in the days of Doseki.
	01-15 23:43	Andre Engels	The usual move if white has a pincer down the right side; I changed from 'bad' to 'good' because there are cases of professionals playing it with the right side empty (about 20 times in my GoGoD-database, which is about 6% of the cases in which the previous move's position appeared with both sides empty)
	01-15 10:26	adum	i think you mean previous move? i agree. i have changed it to Ideal.
	01-15 09:43	Andre Engels	Needs support in the lower right corner; however, normally this is the case when this position is on the board.
	01-15 04:18	tails	So, in what situation is this the best move?
	01-15 03:00	mafutrct	I changed it to "good" and added a comment. please check if that is ok.
	01-15 02:55	mafutrct	i'm not sure why this is bad?
	01-14 21:54	Andre Engels	Black gets a nice amount of territory, while white has to worry about the cut at P15.
	01-14 21:25	Andre Engels	The white stones are light.
	01-14 21:20	Andre Engels	Various continuations have been played here, but I cannot find any to choose over the others.
	01-14 14:34	tails	It was me, sorry.
	01-14 14:32		The book explicitly states this is worse for black than the other move. (It is written in Japanese so I can't fully quote it here.) Maybe you can mark this move as "good", despite of the book, by explaining the situation in which this move is the best.
	01-14 13:50	Andre Engels	If white captures the stone at N17, she is very solid, but saving it is heavy.
	01-14 00:52	mafutrct	this leaves better yose for white. i'll mark it as bad.
	01-14 00:32	mafutrct	i think this should be joseki as well. mark as ideal?
	01-14 00:30	mafutrct	afaik both moves are common.
	01-13 23:24	mafutrct	i agree that this move is soft, but since it is the best possible move sometimes i'd regard it as a "good" move - not ideal, but also not bad. i don't know if the source explicitely states this is really "bad".
	01-13 23:09	Andre Engels	'Hane at the head of two' is a proverbially good move.
	01-13 15:36		tails has a source for his claim -- mafutrct, if you can find a reference that refutes it, let's hear it!
	01-13 15:23	tails	This move is too soft when you could choose the other move.
	01-13 08:03	mafutrct	i think this is not a mistake
	01-13 07:41	mafutrct	this move should be at R16 to be consistent
	01-12 11:44		if w protects the cut at M17, then b Q18 takes the corner
	01-11 21:05	gnos	Is this position settled? It looks to me as though black can monkey jump and kill the corrner if white doesn't respondOn the other side, black can cut successfully and break out.It seems to me that this cannot be the end of the joseki.
	01-11 08:18	isd	This move invites black to secure the corner territory and take liberties from the white stone at the same time. In normal circumstances this can only be described as a bad exchange.
	01-08 11:59		See also http://senseis.xmp.net/?RTGProblem31
	01-08 11:10		http://senseis.xmp.net/?44Point33InvasionJoseki
	01-07 15:37		I'd like more detail and commentary about this refutation. Why is it a refutation? Believe it or not, it's not that obvious.
	01-07 14:34		I added this extension, and added the text "the usual extension from the 3 3 stone". However, someone I played against told me that the large knight's move is more common... I don't know which is the case. Can someone informed please comment on this so we can get it right? I'm not adding the large knight's move because I know absolutely nothing about it. Informed people please speak up.
	01-06 13:25		looks better than P17 to me
	01-06 10:15		Yes it is. The point with this move is to invite white to take the corner so that you make "2 moves in a row" against the corner stone. And although it is a unusual move profesional players have played it: http://senseis.xmp.net/?46PointTo me it looks like Q17 is an better answer as Q14 doesnt seem to be threatening to take that stone or shut it in the corner.
	01-04 15:34		I would assume the question move (8) would be less desirable because the points white gains on the top aren't worth as much as the influence from allowing black to drag out so far.
	01-02 10:55	Marking	This is only good if there is a pincering stone around R11. This is because it makes white stronger, and the corner isn't yet secured.(it can still be invaded at 3-3)
	12-31 11:29	adum	i agree -- this probably should be 'Good'. i think this is a good variation if white wants to take away territory and black's influence won't be valuable.
	12-31 09:33	gnos	I understand the labeling here. White has to do something about that corner and invading gives black too much influence. However, Since this technique was used against me with great effect, I would like to know why this is a "mistake" and not just "not joseki". The 3-3 invasion is labeled as joseki, and this doesn't look all that different.
	12-28 21:56	adum	hi, these questions are better suited for the forum. you can choose your language through either your browser settings or your user settings on goproblems.com.
	12-28 11:09		Is position settled here?
	12-28 11:08		....? Is this considered Joseki? Is this settled? Is this finished? This looks like black got a massacre...
	12-28 09:35	gnos	More detail on this refutation please. It looks like if white presses he gets bent four in the corner and black get's a thick position. Please elaborate this position!
	12-28 09:31	gnos	More detail here please
	12-28 09:30	gnos	I (7k on KGS currently) got tricked by it as black. I believe the presence of nearby stones can strongly affect how good or bad this move is.
	12-28 05:59	LindseyK	Also, how does one choose which language one wants to view in? I made an edit in Esperanto, and now I can't see English when I switch to "view". :\
	12-28 05:52	LindseyK	I asked this on the forum, but perhaps it's good to do so here as well; how does one go about translating the website, labels, etc.?
	12-28 04:34	vinhan	look at joseki Kogo for example
	12-27 19:22	Jagar	Black can play here if white already has a stone around k17.
	12-27 11:15	adum	for this site, we wish to remove symmetrical patterns because otherwise it is hard to find things and a waste of effort. therefore, we always choose down and to the right in a case of symmetry, and so i'm deleting this move.
	12-27 05:20	Marking	The 5-5 point is considered joseki, but since it's so far away, it isn't very efficient. (that's also the reason there aren't any specific joseki's for 5-5) However, if you prefer influence over territory, it might fit your style. I myself don't see it as an "ideal" move, but a "good" move, but there are many other opinions.
	12-26 15:05		This is not joseki, this is invasion
	12-26 06:53		yes, leading to a black wall in gote for white if he wishes to retain an eye at S14. the shape is virtually useless for white
	12-25 05:57	vinhan	this is bad move . i think . sometimes it's only use to probes
	12-23 21:49	adum	i don't think this is really joseki
	12-23 13:31	gnos	Please explain why this is a mistake.
	12-23 08:18	adum	let's leave the center point (tengen) as the one center opening unless there's a reason not to.
	12-23 03:12		Isn't the 4-6 point also sometimes played?
	12-22 21:07	adum	the labeling is a good issue to discuss on the forum. i'm pretty sure the 5-5 is considered joseki, though i don't know any books that cover 5-5.
	12-22 19:42	gnos	Adding the 2 4 approach as "good".
	12-22 19:39	gnos	4463 enclosure. Adding as "Joseki".
	12-22 11:44	gnos	This sequence looks very good if black has one or more stones around Q10 .
	12-22 11:01	gnos	What about tenuki here for white? Since white has two eyes already, isn't that better in alot of cases than just preventing the forcing move at P13?, for example, if black is already strong around Q10?
	12-22 10:42	gnos	According to Eidogo, This move was an innovation of Kitani Minoru's, taking sente while taking a slight disadvantage locally. A lot of detail and a lot of detailed commentary needs to be added to the refutation here.
	12-21 20:01	John Kerpan	Notice White only has extended three spaces from his three stone wall. If he goes further, a Black building move in the area might risk invasion of a thinner position.
	12-21 19:58		I think it is important to note that this should only be used when White does not favor one side or the other. If White actually wishes to build a moyo on one side or another, it makes more sense to approach directly from that side. Otherwise, Black has a chance to make the moyo an empty skirt.
	12-21 14:44	adum	for now, there's no automatic way to do this, but you can put links to positions into the descriptions.
	12-21 13:23		Any chance we could sequences with different order of moves combine in some manner?
	12-21 11:24	adum	interesting sequence... does black R16 next?
	12-21 09:58	adum	i think this is only good if black already has a stone around [r11].
	12-20 11:10	gnos	Adum, this move is not labeled so I assume it is not the start of a variation. I do not believe it is the end of a variation either (There should be a way to know this for sure, like marking a move as "unfinished" or something.). I assume you intend to add branches here. I was going to add the branch I found on gobase today, but I'm not sure I understand how this works. I will wait for you to add at least one branch before I do anything here. Will find simpler joseki to add in the meantime.
	12-20 08:20	gnos	Is the 5 5 point actually considered joseki? I've played it and had difficulty getting a good game out of it. I don't see any variations of this yet that are labeled joseki here, but if there are any I'd certainly like to learn them. So that brings up a nice technical question, if there are not any known joseki arising from a certain point on the board, do we label it green or brownish green? I see the logic of making it green, it's just a move after all, has nothing to do with joseki yet until the other player responds locally to it, and we don't want to say that this particular isolated move is "not joseki", as though it were somehow wrong (from the point of view of joseki). But some might contend that if there are no joseki arising from it then it is not joseki and should not be labeled as such. I would vote to keep the green labeling, but it is worth hearing the opinions of other people on this issue.
	12-20 01:34	dkiller	If black is not captured please present a refutation
	12-19 22:32	apetresc	To answer your question, it's in the "Edit" tab, second menu in the "Tagging" category.
	12-18 16:17	adum	hmmn
	12-10 16:12	adum	true, this is not the avalanche. the large avalanche is [path:qdodocpdpcqencnd]
	12-09 14:12	adum	thanks for your comments about Brugo -- i had missed some things and have updated the comparison page. i don't want to be unfair =) we can discuss more when i have the forum online.
	12-03 13:30		The comments "... often translated to english as the great Avalanche" is not true, the Great Avalanche is a totally different joseki.
	12-03 05:37	brugo	I see this website is a merge of ideas of other seperated services, which is always nice to see them combined.However your comparison is not really complete in my opinion.- BruGo also supports color codes- Brugo also lists the recently added sequences. - In fact brugo allows to ask questions both by feedback forms, joseki can be added by the users as well, and there even is a forum (the forum is currently down due to server migration though).Of course there are also a lot of criteria missing But it's understandable from a market point of view not to mention those. :). Perfectly understandable.But for the rest, I must admit I like your websites and the ideas behind it. Welcome in the joseki world. :)
	11-13 04:20	santa c	hm, when i add a question it keeps the description ("please add a description here and only write something which cannot be expressed using the tags" or something along these lines in hebrew if i chose to save the position >
	10-30 02:57	Bass	yet more testing
	10-19 18:19	adum	I meant in [src:aaj].
	10-19 18:18	adum	Not at all like [path:qdoc].
	10-19 18:03	adum	i like to study [path:qdodpgqcrcpcrekc] sometimes.