01-28 10:33The example path is wrong (it is whites next move but black plays)
01-28 10:30The continuation path is wrong
01-22 09:33??
01-04 13:23lol at josekipedia being edited by anyone. lmaoing at this quality control fam
01-02 23:48After P-17, q-18. If w s-18, then b p-18, w o-18, b n-18 connects out.
12-23 03:02This looks very good for black to me...
12-18 04:21why is this a mistake?
12-01 12:32white doesn't want to keep pushing on the second line
11-24 21:03:(
11-24 13:40QUESTION 2!!!!!!!!!
11-24 13:38WHAT???
11-24 13:02Why is [O17] considered bad here?
11-07 08:20Lol
11-03 23:23This is very similar to https://www.josekipedia.com/#path:pdqfncqdqcrcqerdpereqbpf except without the A/B exchange. So I guess black might prefer this if they're planning to descend at R18 and prefer to save A/B instead of the peep at S13 for later?
11-03 12:16why is everything a mistake??
10-17 20:27alert(1)
10-16 00:04Not in all variations. And even Gote might be not bad in any case.
10-16 00:01I changed the move Q17 to good and not to best.I would not say Q17 is absolutely bad here but it seems a bit slack and gifting for white.I mean black plays an 2 stone wall facing his one stone and after that he has to make a 2 space extension with L17 so that he can not be attacked.Thats why i think its slack.White would kakari here by ocassion. In general to develop the side the kakari stone is facing to(for example if white already played a hoshi or something in the lower rght(maybe in ni ren sei)) or to invade a black position by forcibly threatening blacks hoshi to get a stronger shape after some exchanges eventually even planning to attack adjectend black groups.White ends with a pretty strong shape which even has an eye and all of this in Sente. No matter in which occasion white has to kakari it totaly plays in his hands.Thats why i think its gifting for white.Not to mention that black played the corner here first and the most he achieves is a equal result in Gote. If you play first there should at least be something for you.
10-15 09:58It's fine according to KataGo
10-13 20:30Edited description to add an "A" marker.
10-06 12:55so is this good or isnt it? i'd rather not get random unsourced advice from anonymous people
09-29 18:262 is better?
08-26 16:42Looks like 1 & 2 are marked "good move" just not "ideal move"
08-21 07:02If you check Waltheri's you'll see this move is still being played.
08-03 16:36I am searching a sequence played in high chinese fuseki
07-08 20:01Сan we move p16?
07-08 07:38So little territory got white but black got the bid wall
07-05 14:43Why 4 is a bad move if it is a joseki? Where is a refutation then?
07-02 23:35If white has made joseki moves thus far in this variation and black has been the one to make mistakes, why has white collapsed?
06-22 08:59why are 1 & 2 bad? They are the most common moves on ps waltheri.
06-06 15:19because of symmetry we look at Q16 instead
05-13 19:15привет всем
05-09 12:24fdghjhghjklllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
05-09 12:24jjhujgu
04-27 04:13yeah AI says it's fine
04-27 04:12AI says that omitting the atari can be fine, and that black's best answer is connecting
04-14 18:33Is there a reason why this variation is in here?
04-08 03:51i wish pro players would continue updating this :( many moves that say "ideal" have actually been eliminated in the past few years because it was added such a long time ago...
04-08 03:48can anyone please add more variations that aren't necessarily joseki but are good moves?
03-13 14:08Romantic_BadukIf black doesn't play here, White could easily take eyes by sente.
02-02 22:48B can tenuki
01-25 17:19D is a mistake, D is a good move... I guess that makes it a good mistake to make?
01-18 10:01어케하는겨
01-18 09:59첨부터 어케 하는거징?
01-01 10:21Combat move
12-21 08:13igo tanosii
11-23 23:22a
11-16 18:32This site went down for several days and my life had no meaning
11-07 05:19like this
10-31 21:05I have no fucking idea halp
09-17 14:09I play this joseki all the time :)
09-08 13:59ah, it is symmetric to R15
09-07 22:11why was it deleted?
08-17 19:41seenby passing
08-05 02:16Hi
08-04 21:36seenhow is this a bad move
08-03 00:12seenThis practically isn't joseki anymore, if white wants to slide into corner she should play R16 instead.
07-24 16:12seenyeah
07-20 03:46This is way too long
07-19 18:12this move seems to be favoured by AI so this info is probably outdated
07-19 18:10there should be note that it can be disadvantageous to play this immediately in the opening.
07-18 20:48seenhow is this joseki lol
07-11 23:52AI likes q17 here.
06-30 13:11test
06-17 22:49seenwhite isn't even very thick
06-17 22:47seenI don't think this is bad for black? by sacrificing one stone, black gets secure corner territory, have potential on the top side, AND sente.
06-10 04:53or does it?
05-25 21:36seenhow do i add moves?
05-25 02:46depends on the surrounding, if white is thick on the top side, there are various uses for white
05-24 00:03HelioSevenM16 stone is laddered down and left.
05-01 13:02The exchange of white A and black B is bad for white
04-25 20:11I played this in a friendly game and my opponent didn't speak English. He tried to move my move to the symmetrical 3-4 but I didn't understand what he was trying to show me. He got pretty frustrated and ended up resigning on move 1. Highly recommend 8/10 opening.
04-12 17:50hi gg
04-10 05:13this website is as old as me!
04-10 05:12hi
04-08 15:49hi gg
04-06 14:44Manamiwhy are we adding whole games? whose game even is this?
04-03 03:59AI likes P18 here as well.
03-22 17:57Sensei's Library shows black's final move at R14, not Q14. Doesn't Q14 leave a weakness for black if white r15, black q15, white r14?
03-18 01:37What if black follows up with R18? Should white just give black the corner and escape?
03-06 05:02still see many people doing this though, don't know why
03-05 00:28C is missing :(
03-01 18:40no continuation?
03-01 04:45does anyone know how to defend against mirror go?
02-26 00:46Not a trick move.
02-25 05:41My AI is recommending this in a vacuum
02-23 07:04ManamiThe position of the R13 stone becomes bad
02-23 06:56ManamiLee Changho et al (2015) say this is bad for white
02-23 06:40ManamiLee Changho and others (2015) agree this is old way of playing for white: "A popular joseki in the mid 90s. Not played by white recently because the corner territory is big" (p.71; my translation)
02-23 05:23ManamiYeah it is not a mistake so I changed it. Lee Changho and others in a 2015 Korean book argue like this position for white cus of all of black's weaknesses. They even say this is why we don't see this enclosure recently
02-21 12:01Where are A and B?
02-02 17:10Christopher LongIf this refutes the trick play, then perhaps White's initial play inside the elephant's jump at the 4-4 point should not be counted as a mistake.
01-11 12:06hugovdmHow can black's move 5 here be a "mistake" when the outcome is apparently "good for black"?
01-05 21:25has this lost favour since alphago?
12-23 23:59The AlphaGo link doesn't appear to be available
12-22 19:24wtf is this
12-11 00:49bad
12-07 16:21dsatkascharacterizing this as a trick play, might be a bit much, according to kata it's inferior to o18, but not by much
12-02 10:36hugovdmIt's been relabelled "good move", should we label it a mistake / "bad move" again?
10-24 21:52good move
10-14 20:06"Considered as bad in olden times." Well, how bad was it considered in the olden times, then?
10-07 00:46L'URL de la source n'est plus valide.
10-05 20:02hugovdmLooks like one needs to be "level 1000" to delete it.("Your level (1) is not high enough to remove this node, which is locked at level 1000")Where do we find a "level 1000" person? :-)
10-03 22:32HelioSevenSeems good for white, not sure how black should follow up.
10-02 20:08QiNo bad
10-01 02:02timotamoThis position also occured in a game between Cho Chikun 9p and DeepZenGo (19th November 2016).
09-20 17:49QiBad
09-19 20:42How is black overconcentrated here? White is the one with 11 stones in the center that make a grand total of 1 point and don't have much influence.
09-06 02:26hugovdmDoes this still work well enough if there's a ladder breaker in the bottom-left?
09-05 18:52Marked as 1st choice move. Yet now labelled as a bad move
09-04 03:11My AI seems to like playing A over a 3-3 invasion
08-24 16:45what happens next? white's corner is dead right?
08-19 16:01what happens after that?
08-19 13:33I thought that alphago just doesn't like the o4 move on an empty board
08-18 20:20I found no sequence when black plays tenuki here, although it is becoming popular to let white play a double kakari and take a big move elsewhere on the board. I took the liberty of adding one follow-up I'm pretty confident with, but this section deserves to be improved.
08-09 20:51Hello!
07-30 13:49This is horrible, what if black drops down to p18? You cannot hold it
07-30 00:35forestshrineHello, glad to be here and study joseki
07-18 14:44can not usually played immediatly, depends on board position
07-16 21:13can someone put in the invasion possibilities?
07-15 12:59This is not a trick move. It is a good move, depending on the surrounding situation.
07-13 23:06ManamiWhy is this double hane marked as a trick play? Michael Redmond discusses it in depth as an option: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLUyBCZIGKQ
07-06 18:30doesnt look settled, what does white do next?
06-17 17:20We are unable to delete it, is there a way to do something else?
06-03 16:44hugovdm(The mirrored position is currently labelled "good move"...)
06-03 16:43hugovdmThe mirrored position: [path:pdttqjttndqf] (path:pdttqjttndqf).
06-03 16:43hugovdmThe mirrored position, in case the link is broken: path:pdttpfttjcnc
06-03 16:43hugovdmThe mirror, [path:pdttpfttjcnc], is currently flagged a "bad move".
06-03 16:41hugovdmThis is the more developed mirror of this position: [path:pdttqjttnd].
06-03 16:38hugovdmWeird bug: for this move, I'm trying to link to pdttpfttjc but clicking on the link takes me to pdttpfttjctt ...
05-31 00:04kookok
05-27 11:03omg
05-22 00:52使える
05-20 17:59
05-20 17:58理想的です❗️
05-20 17:56
05-20 17:52初手天元
05-20 17:49基本定石
05-20 17:46ここまでが基本定席
05-15 16:40Why is this considered a "green" response to O17 trick move if it reverts the position to a joseki variation? It's not a refutation.
05-12 17:35What is the proper response to this?
05-12 02:54使える
05-12 02:53いいいつもお世話になっております。
05-03 18:51The exchange of S14 and R13 eliminates aji at the 3-3; W R17 can be answered with B Q17, and W S15 is no longer possible. That is Black's benefit.
04-22 09:29AI ways black is winning here, how is this a refutation?
04-19 17:52Strengthens the right side and aims at the gap at the top.
04-17 10:02White has played all "ideal" moves and yet this is now "good for black"? This position looks even to me?
04-15 02:12100th comment :)
04-15 00:55Deleted a couple of weeks ago...
04-02 23:13So... this is a refutation of a trick by black that ends up being good for black? How exactly is it a refutation, then?
03-26 10:59Mirrored position: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:pdttqfttmc
03-26 10:58Mirrored position: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:pdttqgttnc
03-23 03:14Hi i am noob from Thailand XD
03-19 09:32mysticblueIt is sente for black
03-17 05:49A isn't sente
03-16 07:14why is this a mistake
03-09 22:06HelioSevenIf black has the ladder, white pushes through and connects.
03-09 21:55HelioSevenWhat does white do here?
03-09 21:54HelioSevenDon't see the refutation here, marking as question.
03-07 04:44소목정석
02-26 23:18please delete this, as it is symmetric with R16
02-21 19:25Why is it a mistake here?
02-21 06:36аппроолллл
02-18 09:03I speculate it could mean "Aji Keshi"... :thinkingface:
02-18 09:01hugovdmB2Bomber!
01-26 03:07If this is not considered joseki anymore, why are all the moves to get here listed as green "ideal move"? Should this be removed from the database or reclassified as not an ideal move?
12-27 06:04第1問
12-21 14:17position settledslightly good for blace
12-02 00:58Starlinedeleting~
12-01 12:01hallo?
11-24 16:07How is 2 a bad move here?
11-21 06:57Black is maybe worse off than in joseki, but in no way can you say "black collapses" here
11-20 22:50What happens next?
11-17 17:38Leela Zero seems to prefer this over R13.
11-12 01:19Starlinelike the small avalanche variation, how is it joseki? it's terrible for whoever doesn't have the ladder
11-12 01:17StarlineI like it though
11-02 03:49Does alphaGo change this in any way?
10-23 04:50Hi
10-22 13:51White can tenuki? Really? What about black p16?
10-20 13:41StarlineI don't see 40 comments
10-16 05:08Are you familiar with the entire country of Japan?
10-10 10:41How is this a fighting pattern? It's one of the more calm responses to the approach
09-20 01:17what's the correct move now?
09-19 23:55StarlineAlphago likes this move
09-16 02:26StarlineIf white knew white had a good ladder, why would black play here? either white has a good ladder or they don't.
09-13 03:35game over
09-11 05:44HelioSevenThe main goal of this approach is to block black's extension down that side of the board. Only the close low pincer [r12] threatens to connect underneath, all other positions for black on the right are effectively separated.
09-07 04:01Not a trick
09-02 15:57Starlineedit: 26 people downvoted the empty board position
09-01 13:31Leela Zero agrees. Changed to Avoided trick
09-01 11:09SiouxDenimHard to see how this is a good sequence if 'Black collapses' is the outcome. S17 was the last time B had a choice, so presumably it was a bad one.
08-28 17:57It is locally better for white but black can develop the right hand side which he can't in tradicional joseki
08-27 08:40GreenAsJadeWhat 'A' does this refer to?
08-26 03:59If black was hoping white will do this (as per description of previous position) then why is it considered Ideal for white to do what black wants?
08-25 14:27What if White responds at T17 at this point?
08-25 13:39-3% drop in winrate needs contextualisation.
08-25 13:30Continuations don't seem to offer sufficient explanations. Possibly incomplete branches submitted?
08-23 18:43Starlineit says 39 comments, but none will show, does anyone else have this problem?
08-22 03:18Which ladder?
08-20 23:56For endgame yes, good for white but in the start of the game? I don't think so
08-20 18:12StarlineAlphaGo thinks this is inferior to the invasion at 3-3 point
08-19 19:56Starlinejust because pros don't play it for fear of missing a variation, doesn't mean it isn't joseki
08-19 07:19R15 and P17 are the same (without context) -- just mirrored along the diagonal. But continuations differ.
08-19 07:05いいよこいよ
08-17 17:33Nowadays this joseki is very popular.
08-09 03:57I think K16 is better than L14 for black.
08-06 07:43普通にk16打って掛けないとダメじゃないか
08-01 00:11This is (locally) symmetric to R15 -- however, only in this variant the cut is considered bad.
07-30 07:36Leela prefers this move
07-25 18:09Solo si hay un sector mas grande y blanco posee Sabaki
07-24 08:40GreenAsJadeWhat is the point of this? How is this "Joseki"?
07-24 05:04I would expect white to play the 3-3 continuation in sente and then extend along the top. This way of playing as white says that the top is more important than the right, so extending into that space seems natural.
07-24 01:47StarlineI still don't know why people are voting on the Empty Board position. It is just kind of pointless. There are 25 people who downvoted the Empty Board position, which just seems insane to me.
07-21 18:26I'm removing "White needs one more move here, otherwise he gets killed. Pass to see.", because White lives after tenuki.
07-14 03:16GreenAsJadeYeah, what is this doing here?
07-14 02:39GreenAsJadeWaltheri's gives this as a good postion...
07-13 19:34yegoristWhy is this a mistake?
07-13 05:28What does "the cut at C may loose the opportunity later" mean?Is it trying to say "if you want to cut at C, you need to do it now"?
07-01 18:33what are the follow-ups after this move?
06-24 10:49GreenAsJadeThe comment at A (O17) is that modern AI's don't think this is a good joseki. So why is it marked as 'A' and 'Ideal' here?
06-23 04:44Will this work for white if black has a stone at Q10?, can he run out at S12?
06-21 02:57White Atari at Q19 and ends up winning the liberty race
06-17 17:12How to refute?
06-17 17:12What if this is played?
06-17 05:27What if white escape L15?
06-15 04:111 space high approach recently has been changed to marked in red. someone should change that.
06-14 22:33How does this refute? Seems like white can live
06-12 22:08If this move requires a ladder, then how will white punish black if black doesn't have any ladders?
06-11 12:42Ah yes, the reverse-4-stone-handicap-joseki? Wonderful.
06-08 07:22I think it leaves a ko threat, while the other one doesn't
06-05 08:22HelioSevenThis whole sequence should be labelled bad for white. Black gains enormous thickness for the two stone sacrifice.
06-05 08:15HelioSevenVia tewari, [o17] feels of greater value to me than [q16] and I think overall white has the better end of the exchange.
06-03 21:12alert(1)
05-25 03:31can you explain more?
05-13 01:08why delete
05-02 01:20This move is not a mistake. It leads to an approximately equal position.
04-30 11:42can w just q12 now?
04-22 17:50?? then why is R13 marked as only a good move?
04-17 23:02Hello!!!!!!!!!!!
04-16 12:09On 15 April 2019 this branch turned into an entire game, which isn't appropriate for Josekipedia. I've deleted the first node of this 15 April continuation (P4), but I think some more moves should actually be deleted.
04-12 09:50Hi!!!!
04-07 22:52Hello!!
04-05 04:01M18 also works, and is perhaps slightly better shape.
04-05 03:59O18 is a severe weakness, as soon as O16 is played, white should follow up with N17.
04-01 21:32What comes next?
03-27 10:31(Of course, Kogo's is also not getting updated, knowledge in it may be old and/or wrong. An amateur might thus be interested in insights into the two options.)My personal choice so far: "simpler is better, I'm barely SDK, if that".
03-27 10:20Kogo's Joseki Dictionary considers this option slightly superior to S16.
03-26 19:39How is this playable for White??
03-26 01:03ah, no, maybe it is
03-26 00:59can black take sente here? the corner doesn't look very alive
03-23 18:44what's the follow-up for white here?
03-17 11:50멋있다
03-13 17:41What about this move, which Leela 0.11.0 sometimes plays somewhat later?
03-13 17:39This is how Leela 0.11.0 thinks one should continue.
03-12 10:36PJTraill@Green As Jade: Most correct sequences kill [S15], but allow White to improve his position on the outside – that is typical for a probe.
03-11 03:30perhaps it was supposed to say '1 is exactly what W wants'?
03-07 22:06W is not really in trouble. I added a sequence showing the contrary.
03-03 08:53White has a big territory but black is strong outside
03-03 02:27Why? What is the followup?
02-20 22:12Why is this marked as mistake if most continuations here are marked good for black?
02-19 23:50PJTraillHear, hear! At what point should who deviate?
02-19 17:25Why doesn't black cut here p16?
02-13 04:25So here you can see the divine opening first played by Chiwashuwa Liuwotong in 1467.
01-19 00:21The ladder is at Q14
01-17 03:07Is this not bad for blacks 2-stone group? (11 Kyu asking)
01-16 19:52What's considered the best answer here?
01-15 23:32This is probably supposed to be Magic Sword of Muramasa, named after famed swordsmith Sengo Muramasa
01-13 09:25GreenAsJadeWhy are all the moves in the centre marked as "good move"?Are any of them considered "Joseki"?If they are, why don't they have continuations?
01-13 00:12GreenAsJadeWhy is this marked as "good move" when the description says that it is usually ineffectual?
01-12 14:20どのツギ?どのハネ?
12-20 00:39HelioSevenSeems to me like this is just leaving behind too many problems.
12-18 02:32HelioSevenConcurring with Manami, while it is a fuseki move it does also have mild implications for the corner, so there is reason to include it in a joseki dictionary.
12-18 01:28can this please be continued
12-14 13:03good! good! good! super!!!
12-13 23:21GreenAsJadeIt's funny - the comment for P14 says that most of the time this is a better move. Contrast to the (old) comment below :)
12-09 13:28Is not black better than white at the end of this stiuation?
12-08 10:23Can anyone add what can black do as a counter-action?
12-08 10:15Isn't this fuseki, not Joseki?
12-04 06:39how on earth is this an ideal result for white? is white not dead in the corner? because it looks like white is dead in the corner
12-01 11:14Bots currently prefer this enclosure to the 3-4 one because it's harder to reduce. Nevertheless, it has more aji.
12-01 11:12Has been played by some professional... Not good.
12-01 11:02I am telling a second time to anyone who comes to edit in Josekipedia : DO NOT ADD FUSEKI ANYMORE. The reason is here:placing stones in opposite corners only for fuseki is completely WORTHLESS. If you want to know openings, there are other sites and apps you can check out. See my previous comment.
12-01 10:53If you are just going to put another stone in the corner for nothing, better not to do at all.
11-30 17:06Where is A?
11-27 22:16how is this good profit for white?
11-25 17:01if black follows this with S17 it seems like white can get a similar position to the one you get when black plays S14 instead of S16. is the eye that white gets at S14 a crucial part of why that position is good for white, making this less favourable?
11-25 04:48and if black has the ladder?
11-15 04:35how does that kill? best I can get is disadvantageous ko
11-15 00:13if black does not have the ladder, should he take either a or b?
11-13 19:07and if you don't have the ladder?
11-10 10:14r13 is painful
11-07 21:05there's nothing to tell about overconcentration. Black kinda helped White to get shape.
11-07 21:02assuming a favorable ladder for Black.
11-07 20:59yes. Black failed to destroy the right side and White got stronger.
11-05 19:25PJTraillThis line (from the “trick play” at [O16]) occurs in “The Endgame” (Tomoko Ogawa & James Davies, Ishi Press Elementary Go Vol. 6), played by Haruo Kamimura against Ogawa.
11-05 19:22PJTraillThis line occurs in “The Endgame” (Tomoko Ogawa & James Davies, Ishi Press Elementary Go Vol. 6), played by Haruo Kamimura against Ogawa.
11-05 19:21PJTraillThis line occurs in “The Endgame” (Tomoko Ogawa & James Davies, Ishi Press Elementary Go Vol. 6), played by Haruo Kamimura against Ogawa.
11-03 14:43drinkJosekiC/R11 is not the mini-chinese opening. L17 would be the mini chinese opening. see https://senseis.xmp.net/?SmallChineseFuseki
11-03 08:16GreenAsJadeIf this is "good for black" and "hard to find an answer" then why is it joseki?
11-02 03:13what is the reason for the Q13-Q14 exchange?
11-01 14:57what ppl think of this one?
10-29 09:35GreenAsJadeNote, later on in this sequence it says that white would not play this unless black has an extension on the top....
10-28 04:22Is there a standard continuation here?
10-26 12:08ManamiThis is a joseki site, not a fuseki one...ここは定石を勉強するためのサイトであって、布石は別のサイトがいくらでもあるので、そっちでやればいいんです。
10-24 16:44another joseki, [path:pdqfncrdkcqc], redirects to this position for continuations
10-24 16:41this redirects to a deleted position
10-21 22:39why play this as opposed to the variation without the bQ18 wR18 exchange?
10-21 00:58What is "A"?
10-20 06:01And why wouldn't you exchange s17-s18 first? White might play s17 before you do.
10-19 13:31Manami"No use", "Ineffective" - tell that to the pros who won with it against other pros.I mean, I don't play or like it myself, but like... who are you??
10-19 13:29ManamiThis has seen some pro game use, particularly in NHK cup. Why shouldn't be on here if good resources/common variations from pro games can be found.
10-17 00:45what about p17?
10-09 10:11omg
10-09 10:10i am noob
10-09 10:10lol
10-01 22:56GreenAsJadeWhy do people smugly write "this requires a favourable ladder" without saying what that is? So frustrating, having to search through variations to find that trap.
10-01 01:03Ooou[q16]checking comments
09-28 05:16why does white make this exchange
09-26 08:38GreenAsJadeThis move is marked as bad at http://josekipedia.com/#path:qdocpcod !
09-26 08:15KoreaHasFallenBLACK IS 100000% SAFe YOU FUCK there is NOTHING after q15 NOTHING
09-23 06:36bye
09-20 15:45How is this an ideal continuation for white?
09-19 21:26questionable
09-19 08:14GreenAsJadeWhat ladder?
09-17 19:39[r17]
09-11 09:21HelioSevenThis move seems kinda funny to me...
09-11 09:19HelioSevenI don't see a problem after push and cut, regardless of ladder.
09-08 18:55I am wondering about this move. am 9 kyu and a 6 kyu played this all the time against me.
09-06 17:08I agree, no fuseki here. I come to study joseki
09-05 19:41I saw this is a game from ELF (one simulation). If W answers incorrectly, the result is great for B.
09-05 14:55This is simply too good for Black. Great thickness and White has nothing to compare with it.It gives him eye shape while White is a lot weaker.
09-05 04:54Eye4Eyeif white will collapse, this should be labeld a good move not a bad one??
09-01 10:46gogobidaNot as good as [path:qdocpe].Black leaves an invasion at [r17] that makes [p15] inefficient.
09-01 10:40gogobidaWhite may as well resign.
08-26 10:54triangles are good herenot squares but
08-22 20:12This is often used as a probe. Black may leave his stone for after.
08-22 07:10gogobidaSomeone told me pros were testing this move...
08-22 06:52gogobidaOf course this is good for B locally, but White might play like this if B's influence is not impacting too much on the sides.This is the "basic" variation that we teach to beginners.
08-22 06:44gogobidaI think the guy who wrote this got confused with the tsumego where White only has two stones on the 2nd line. In this case White can tenuki without any damage.
08-22 06:36gogobidaAlright, but it's safer to play o18 first. If you don't, then B will take this point in sente.
08-22 06:32gogobidaNowadays this is almost every time the variation Black is going to choose when he plays double hane.
08-22 06:29gogobidaAt this point LeelaZero thinks White better has to avoid connection and play m17.
08-20 15:08Why can white not pass? I don't see a problem.
08-18 01:48Why not in the upper left instead of the lower right?
08-17 09:05GreenAsJadeIf S15 kills (as claimed) then why would black play any other move?
08-17 07:04gogobidahttps://youtu.be/tfippyQMEdU?t=51m44s
08-14 02:42ok this is funny
08-12 07:39gogobidaDid not found source from this... I added variations.
08-12 07:07gogobidaif B m17 then M16 M16 L16 and Black can't avoid cutting or dying.
08-11 09:18HelioSevenKo lock seems good here?
08-10 06:18gogobidaIt seems ELF plays this move too...
08-08 14:45I think it's not played anymore after Alphago, reason being that giving 3-3 to Black is too good for Black. Source: one of the recent Alphago game commentaries by Michael Redmond on the AGA yt channel.
08-06 17:05gogobidathe purpose of this move is to have a greater effect on the right side.
08-06 16:54gogobidaThis move has been proposed a lot by AlphaGo.
08-06 16:34gogobidaIn this sequence Black has a stone at [f17]
08-06 16:10gogobidawith a black stone at Q9
08-06 16:07gogobidaAlphaGo's proposition, there was a white stone at D16 and a black one at F17.
08-06 11:41gogobidaBecause if he doesn't W could play here later.
08-02 07:02gogobidaDespite the bad exchange at P15, White has better eye shape and Black cannot enclose nor threaten the corner.
08-01 07:29gogobidaThis is used to enlarge a moyo.
08-01 07:01gogobidaThis is great thinking about the timing of this move.
07-22 15:29gogobidaThis is AlphaGo's preference here.
07-17 12:58"rebundant" is meant to be "redundant" as in over-concentrated?
07-08 08:08gogobidaWhy would you play here?
07-08 08:04gogobidaIf you are going to play small like this, better tenuki here.
07-03 07:43gogobidaNo it's not. The purpose of R17 was to attack, but B failed even though he got some influence. B's moyo has been destroyed.
07-03 07:01gogobidasince W has no ko threats locally, Black will win this ko and destroy the entire corner.
07-03 06:44gogobidawindmill !
07-01 06:31gogobidaAlso see http://senseis.xmp.net/?34PointLowApproachUpperAttachment
06-29 23:35GreenAsJadeOh wait, wrong, it's there :)
06-29 23:34GreenAsJadeNo example of this position show up in Waltheri's. Not played by pros?
06-27 07:37What's the follow-up from here?
06-26 06:05gogobidaThe difference is not huge, but in any case White is satisfied.
06-26 06:05gogobidaIt looks big, but after R14 W has S16 in the yose to reduce it further.The corner is less than 20 points to me, while White damaged M16 and destroyed Black's prospects on both sides. This is certainly not the result Black intended when he pincered.
06-26 05:55gogobidaWould be nice to prove that works.
06-23 16:41gogobidaWould be nice to see some sources, labels, etc... Adding handicap fuseki is ok, but it is only useful when these sequences are SPECIFIC to handicap.Also, we don't want games in josekipedia, so please dalmandala stop doing that...
06-23 16:41gogobidaWould be nice to see some sources, labels, etc... Adding handicap fuseki is ok, but it is only useful when these sequences are SPECIFIC to handicap.Also, we don't want games in josekipedia, so please dalmandala stop doing that...
06-23 16:41gogobidaWould be nice to see some sources, labels, etc... Adding handicap fuseki is ok, but it is only useful when these sequences are SPECIFIC to handicap.Also, we don't want games in josekipedia, so please dalmandala stop doing that...
06-23 16:41gogobidaWould be nice to see some sources, labels, etc... Adding handicap fuseki is ok, but it is only useful when these sequences are SPECIFIC to handicap.Also, we don't want games in josekipedia, so please dalmandala stop doing that...
06-23 16:41gogobidaWould be nice to see some sources, labels, etc... Adding handicap fuseki is ok, but it is only useful when these sequences are SPECIFIC to handicap.Also, we don't want games in josekipedia, so please dalmandala stop doing that...
06-23 16:41gogobidaWould be nice to see some sources, labels, etc... Adding handicap fuseki is ok, but it is only useful when these sequences are SPECIFIC to handicap.Also, we don't want games in josekipedia, so please dalmandala stop doing that...
06-23 16:41gogobidaWould be nice to see some sources, labels, etc... Adding handicap fuseki is ok, but it is only useful when these sequences are SPECIFIC to handicap.Also, we don't want games in josekipedia, so please dalmandala stop doing that...
06-23 16:41gogobidaWould be nice to see some sources, labels, etc... Adding handicap fuseki is ok, but it is only useful when these sequences are SPECIFIC to handicap.Also, we don't want games in josekipedia, so please dalmandala stop doing that...
06-23 16:22gogobidacrosscut
06-23 16:22gogobidastandard windmill shape.
06-22 07:53gogobidaGNUGo is a bad robot. This kind of move should only be played when W really needs to survive, or in the middle game, but not here.
06-22 07:35gogobidaFirst of all, this is a bad idea. White can simply play P13 : Black strengthens W further without adequate compensation. Also, W can Q15 and destroy B's shape.
06-22 07:17gogobidawell... S15
06-22 07:16gogobidaThis move has been played by AlphaGo
06-22 07:13gogobidaCould you tell me in which game ?
06-22 07:09gogobidaIf B O18, W P18 kills.
06-22 07:06gogobidaUnless W REALLY has to be light, this is forced.
06-21 23:32GreenAsJadeIsn't this a _huge_ corner for black?Why is that good for white?
06-21 09:04Remember : when I can atari on both sides, I should not...
06-21 08:56lol GnuGo is so bad just connect at O13
06-21 08:23Patternist, why W could not play this ?????
06-20 12:09Do not make unnecessary exchanges !
06-20 11:04It has been discussed here by Ryan Li 1p & Stephanie Yin 1p https://youtu.be/8ye-L4JdAxM?t=3m31s
06-19 19:35First of all, White should connect. Q14 is wrong : it denies the possibility of R14 (which is a better attack and S15.
06-19 19:06Black looks good, but White took the corner (which was supposed to be Black's) in sente. Black looks like to have a ponnuki, but it's not worth much.
06-19 19:04Not really about ko threats, but in terms of yose. Also I'm not sure if it's worse.
06-19 19:03I disagree with you Gillis. If White plays here, there's a lot of aji in the corner. For instance, O18 will be sente and I believe there's something of a 10.000 year ko.
06-19 18:46This is not good for White. Black can play L17 K16 M18 to connect later.
06-18 17:39Wrong shape.
06-18 13:46S16 is better in terms of points
06-18 13:20Benson Darr and pros played this move recently.
06-16 16:05first of all, exchange O17
06-16 16:01Guo Juan has a video about this refutationhttp://internetgoschool.com/lesson.vhtml?ls_id=929
06-16 15:28No. If so W should not have exchanged P17 and O17
06-16 15:25Remember that the pincer was supposed to develop the right side. Here B changes plan and takes upper side. B's play lack unity and sense.
06-15 17:11premature.
06-13 18:59No. pure gote
06-13 16:12Oops... P16 is the vital point...
06-13 10:38Capturing two unimportant stones will just make you heavier.
06-13 10:36No. If you play here you cannot capture S14 in the endgame.
06-13 10:34Never! save your two stones instead
06-13 05:49R14 has some aji.
06-13 05:49Wow.. no. W needs to play O18 instead.
06-13 05:47W should not add any move here, he's alive. Q18 will damage his outside stone and S13 is gote.
06-13 05:40very bad exchange.
06-12 15:24R17 is possible, but it is not the only possible move.
06-12 15:23This is ok, but disadvantageous. Q15 is better.
06-12 15:18Locally this is quite disadvantageous. But in some cases this is playable. Most of the times Q14 is better.
06-12 11:38It should be added that black can tenuki here no?
06-11 12:16Never play this move.
06-11 12:16are you joking me... S13 and Q14
06-11 11:56Que se passe t-il si Noir joue là ?Blanc est il capable de tuer les 2 pierres en dessous ?Oui.
06-11 11:51Kong (P) vs DTD (P) :Internet game between pros
06-11 11:49lol is it really useful?are you joking?don't do this on josekipedia please...
06-10 18:00There's no real profit to make this move, moreover on the second line. Black can play S16
06-10 17:52W could cut, but Q10 would be overconcentrated.
06-10 08:16lol pls stop putting this in josekipedia
06-09 10:20Yes, B's corner is worth 20 pts because of O18. Also, if W gets R11 there's some aji in the corner. Notice how W's influence is overwhelming.
06-09 06:43Sorry for deleting... This move is unnecessary and a bad exchange.
06-08 14:05Unnecessary exchange...
06-06 15:00I completely disagree with you dalmandala. This move is correct, it is more solid and it is in books. O13 leaves two cuts.
05-31 18:49AlphaGo suggestion
05-30 02:59i think if the ladder doesnt work, m18 captures black.
05-29 17:30See:https://badukmovies.com/episodes/a-peek-around-the-corner
05-28 15:23Would be nice to tell exactly which move refutes the trick.
05-27 04:31:0
05-26 20:39Leela Zero
05-26 05:49Gu Zihao vs Lian Xiao, 2018-05-25
05-25 15:23https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezZJvUy3JB8
05-25 14:59P13 P12 O12 T13 O14
05-25 14:57very bad exchange. This loses a liberty, a ko threat and weakens plays like M17
05-25 14:32P19 and R19 are miai.
05-25 14:26S17 is much more solid. Never play like this unless it is really needed.
05-25 13:28Frick-style
05-25 13:26Good for white :O
05-24 13:49If B does not respond to Q15, W's corner is perfectly alive.
05-24 13:45This is necessary. Else W plays Q15
05-21 20:06Black may die. Even if he lives, he will have to crawl along the 2nd line.
05-21 20:01S16 looks good enough.
05-21 17:38No, no and no. Endgame is not what we want on josekipedia.
05-21 17:37Locally the high approach leads to a defavorable result. It is only used in special situations.
05-20 19:14gogobidaDifficult move to answer. White should play Q15 to keep the things simple.
05-20 18:56gogobidajust play O17
05-20 17:55gogobidaRemember that W should have a stone at H17.
05-20 09:15Nick Sibicky in episode 295 Pincer Joseki said this line had better aji
05-20 07:11gogobidaLeela Zero often plays like this.
05-20 05:55gogobidaNever atari like this. It reinforces too much W
05-19 08:06gogobidaIs this a pro game ?
05-19 07:07gogobidaQ14 captures two unimportant stones.
05-19 07:05gogobidaIf W plays S17 then S13 R12 Q18 S12 T18 kills
05-19 07:03gogobidaBlack would wait to play P14 directly instead of this.
05-19 07:01gogobidaThis does not change.
05-19 06:48gogobidaIt leaves aji. If W plays M19 he threatens a ko (even this is not big) at O19. Moreover, after W S14, B S13 is no longer effective since W can respond at T15.
05-19 06:23gogobidaThis is the move Leela Zero (fast) played against me.
05-14 10:30What is the best way to punish if black plays tenuki?
05-13 14:00gogobidahttps://youtu.be/2ZgDS7nT7ck?t=62 Haylee 9D
05-12 22:22hey有围棋十诀
05-12 20:41black R18? white response?
05-11 18:04gogobidaThis is very bad for White. He played Q17 as a gift (it achives nothing) and Black has N18 or O18 in the yose. Black's corner is bigger and he can aim P15.
05-11 17:51gogobidaNever exchange like this unless you have a good follow-up.
05-11 17:45gogobidaPrinciples are not sacred cows.
05-11 17:41gogobidaIf Black wanted to protect the right side this is terrible. P17 is damaged and White gets too good profit on the upper side. So this variation does not make sense.
05-11 17:37gogobidaSeems difficult to attack
05-11 16:21gogobidaNo PJTrail. Black does not need ladder (I wonder why you think so)
05-11 16:04gogobidaHikaru vs Akira
05-11 13:26This is dissapointing because earlier it said it was leading to a ko
05-11 07:20gogobidaWhy???
05-11 06:53gogobidaDo not exchange this without a good reason.
05-11 01:53HelioSevenKo lock seems good for white here.
05-08 09:08gogobidaHas been used by pros and by Zen
05-06 06:42gogobidaNormally White should be able to win the ko (in the fuseki)
05-05 07:36gogobidaReally have to say : NEVER bump in this situation. This helps more White's shape.
05-05 07:22gogobidaThis is a common shape. Solving this problem is a good exercise to work.
05-04 16:35gogobidaIf Black N17 then O17 seems enough. Black can't hope to "attack" White.
05-04 16:28gogobidaBumping like this is usually very bad. This is hane at the head of two stones.
05-04 15:36gogobidaSource: https://viktorlingo.com/2017/04/01/yet-another-fabulous-variation-in-this-corner/#more-2874
05-04 05:42gogobidaAll the moves Black played have served little purpose and greatly strengthened White.
05-03 16:22gogobidaNote : If Black escapes with L15, White captures him with K14. Then K15 J15 K16 J16 etc...
05-03 16:20gogobidaWhite is extremely strong Black is completely squeezed with two giant dumpling shapes which are so insane !
05-03 16:09gogobidaIs it really Mi Witing ? don't you think it was Mi Yuting ? Because I can't find him on goratings.org
05-03 15:33Ooouand?
05-02 12:54Ooouwhite aims at K17
05-01 09:28gogobidaThis is wrong. Black connects and White is forced to extend at N16, so Black can capture at P14.
05-01 09:27gogobidaWhite cannot push at Q16 (Q16-Q15-R15-R14 White is dead).
05-01 09:17gogobidaS14 is also a good point later on (not in the fuseki).
05-01 09:14gogobidaSeen in a pro game.
05-01 09:11gogobidaQ13 is probably overplay. Black can cut at P14 and this fight is good for him.
05-01 09:06gogobidaProbably this is possible. But surely this is not the simplest punishment :-)
05-01 09:05gogobidaYou cannot extend now. Else Q15 is too painful.
05-01 09:02gogobidaIf B P14 or O15 W can just Q15. S15 and O17 are miai.
05-01 09:01gogobidaIf B O17 then W S15 is very good for W.
05-01 08:47gogobidaIf Black T11, White R10.
05-01 08:33gogobidaNote : O14 or P14 are too slow for White. Black can just tenuki.
05-01 08:01gogobidaAlphaGo prefers this variation. See https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1631073600260538
04-30 21:06It is kind of a situational move:If there is a black stone around L17 this is not a bad move.
04-30 16:18gogobidaQ16 O15 N15 looks enough.
04-27 20:01If Black plays Q15 then White Q16 and Black connects at R17. White needs the ladder at Q14.
04-27 11:57GreenAsJadeWhat does it mean "play an asking move?". How does white know if B or C is better?
04-24 20:46Let's not add more fuseki unless there's a good reason.
04-24 15:45R16 is basically the only move locally.
04-23 19:32People never thought this move was bad. It was always a situation move.
04-22 15:54How is this considered a joseki? White collapses here..
04-21 06:46See http://senseis.xmp.net/?ChineseFuseki for details.
04-20 14:39Never ! Else White is too heavy. He should fight the ko at s15.
04-20 07:15I don't think this is so bad for White.
04-19 03:15TelpelóteI don't see how this is bad...
04-19 03:14TelpelóteHow is the 3-3 a bad move here?
04-19 03:12TelpelóteIf this is good for b while the 3-3 invasion one is even, wouldn't P13 be sub optimal?
04-18 16:05HelioSevenThis definitely seems like the weaker of the two moves, but seems alright in certain situations.
04-18 16:04HelioSevenSeems to me like black has good options after white cuts here.
04-18 15:50HelioSevenI think this is the direction of play for white?
04-17 23:37What happens after this?
04-16 15:08any variants to continue?
04-12 19:05please continue
04-12 18:45Ooouas far as I remember (I'll check the games' number), AlphaGo plays this move too (end game)
04-10 06:23This happened to me and my opponent had black stones at n17 and r13 (3rd line Knight's jump plus one). I just wanted to invade and barely live to reduce his territory but it looks like he made the right move and I can't live after 2-2. So I agonized about it then tenuki. Really love to see a pro analyze this and prove me wrong. Never seen it before. ~13kyu
04-06 23:12I added a branch afterwards to show what might happen
04-06 22:34HelioSevenCurious about the line after P16, N16. Line after N18, P16 doesn't seem very good for black.
04-06 07:40B and C are not shown
04-05 16:36PJTraillCan White still reduce the corner with [R17], as when Black plays tenuki after [n16]?
04-05 09:35HelioSevenI didn't add this line, just added description.
04-02 00:39This is unrealistic...
04-02 00:30might as well show the punish. Does black press down?
03-31 01:18It's probably because it is usually played in the context of a chinese opening
03-26 20:07PJTraillHow come this is marked as a refutation when it reverts to a joseki that can be reasonable for White? Is not the only refutation in the previous diagram is Black [r15]? And if that is good for Black, is it not a mistake for them to play here? The same applies to other ‘Good Move’ in previous diagram.
03-17 20:38GustaWhy would black play this endgame in gote now?
03-17 10:00Ooou布石 https://alphagoteach.deepmind.com/
03-17 09:45Fuseki: https://alphagoteach.deepmind.com/
03-14 11:48PJTraillWhat ladder is needed? Is it the one to capture [n15]? And what does the Asian text in the description say?
03-12 08:20Theres no D. Somebody, give this joseki the D.
03-07 17:56I’m sure I will see if you guys want it at all but it’s still on Twitter is my last time you can come over tomorrow night I
03-06 11:22PJTraillThanks to M. Anonymous at for providing the refutation!
03-06 04:36this stone has no real follow up for white as black is already relatively safe on both sides, black can tenuki
03-06 04:34imagine the r14 stones as a 4 stone wall with a full extension down to t14, proverb says to make an extension 1+ height of the wall. this extension is not that.after middlegame and endgame is considered like white getting s14 the q10 stone starts to feel heavy and overconcentrated
03-04 20:52To study fuseki : gobase.org/fuseki https://kgs.fuseki.info/fuseki.php?f=full&sb=fullYou can also download the app "GoMoves to look a largepanel of professional games (you can find all the games starting with some fusekis).
03-04 20:52To study fuseki : gobase.org/fuseki https://kgs.fuseki.info/fuseki.php?f=full&sb=fullYou can also download the app "GoMoves to look a largepanel of professional games (you can find all the games starting with some fusekis).
03-04 19:30To study fuseki : gobase.org/fuseki https://kgs.fuseki.info/fuseki.php?f=full&sb=fullYou can also download the app "GoMoves to look a largepanel of professional games (you can find all the games starting with some fusekis).
03-04 19:30To study fuseki : gobase.org/fuseki https://kgs.fuseki.info/fuseki.php?f=full&sb=fullYou can also download the app "GoMoves to look a largepanel of professional games (you can find all the games starting with some fusekis).
03-04 19:30To study fuseki : gobase.org/fuseki https://kgs.fuseki.info/fuseki.php?f=full&sb=fullYou can also download the app "GoMoves to look a largepanel of professional games (you can find all the games starting with some fusekis).
03-04 19:30To study fuseki : gobase.org/fuseki https://kgs.fuseki.info/fuseki.php?f=full&sb=fullYou can also download the app "GoMoves to look a largepanel of professional games (you can find all the games starting with some fusekis).
03-04 19:30To study fuseki : gobase.org/fuseki https://kgs.fuseki.info/fuseki.php?f=full&sb=fullYou can also download the app "GoMoves to look a largepanel of professional games (you can find all the games starting with some fusekis).
03-04 19:29To study fuseki : gobase.org/fuseki https://kgs.fuseki.info/fuseki.php?f=full&sb=fullYou can also download the app "GoMoves to look a largepanel of professional games (you can find all the games starting with some fusekis).
03-04 19:29To study fuseki : gobase.org/fuseki https://kgs.fuseki.info/fuseki.php?f=full&sb=fullYou can also download the app "GoMoves to look a largepanel of professional games (you can find all the games starting with some fusekis).
03-04 19:29To study fuseki : gobase.org/fuseki https://kgs.fuseki.info/fuseki.php?f=full&sb=fullYou can also download the app "GoMoves to look a largepanel of professional games (you can find all the games starting with some fusekis).
03-04 19:13To study fuseki : gobase.org/fuseki https://kgs.fuseki.info/fuseki.php?f=full&sb=fullYou can also download the app "GoMoves to look a largepanel of professional games (you can find all the games starting with some fusekis).
03-04 19:07I also deleted most of the fusekis just added for "fun". I only kept the important openings such as mini-chinese, kobayashi, sanrensei...
03-04 18:53Hey, in some fuseki they are kind of "joseki" (for example in the mini-chinese fuseki), so we can keep them. but all other sequences crossing the board are not useful and need to be deleted.
03-04 18:53Hey, in some fuseki they are kind of "joseki" (for example in the mini-chinese fuseki), so we can keep them. but all other sequences crossing the board are not useful and need to be deleted.
03-04 18:26Please, do not add other variations starting with this move, I don't want them and they are no use. I only added Q17 variation to illustrate the ineffectiveness of the stone here.
03-04 18:26Please, do not add other variations starting with this move, I don't want them and they are no use. I only added Q16 variation to illustrate the ineffectiveness of the stone here.
03-04 18:26Please, do not add other variations starting with this move, I don't want them and they are no use. I only added Q16 variation to illustrate the ineffectiveness of the stone here.
03-04 18:25Please, do not add other variations starting with this move, I don't want them and they are no use. I only added Q16 variation to illustrate the ineffectiveness of the stone here.
03-04 18:25Please, do not add other variations starting with this move, I don't want them and they are no use. I only added Q16 variation to illustrate the ineffectiveness of the stone here.
03-04 18:22I limited variations starting with P14, P13, etc because they are stupid.
03-04 05:28This happened to meI don't know what I should do...
03-03 14:35This is an AlphaGo joseki (it thinks the usual hane of S16 is bad).
02-18 11:23使える~
02-08 05:51nbouscalthis is way too narrow
02-03 20:42White wins by 6.5 points!
01-29 20:04Well, is "Empty Board" an ideal move ? :p
01-25 23:30PJTraill[src:dobj,III 200] gives this as starting an ‘equivalent to a joseki’ – is it not ideal in the appropriate circumstances?
01-25 23:23PJTraillIs this something White would initiate (with [r17]) or just a demonstration that [r17] is no good?
01-25 23:13PJTraillIs this still accepted? Given in [src:dobj, III p. 200] as ‘virtually equivalent to a basic joseki’.
01-25 10:00What does this mean in English? Google translate says: "Suppress the wide side of the black wings of Jiraki"
01-23 19:17what about r17?
01-23 19:15Best variation! =D
01-20 14:06PJTraillHear, hear, what is wrong? How can White show this up as a mistake?
01-16 07:24GreenAsJadeThis move wasn't the end of "a joseki" in the Lee Sedol Game. The corner is not "settled" at this point. In fact, this move was a high shoulder hit on a black stone at L16, which demanded a response from black.
01-16 07:23GreenAsJadeJust becase this was played in 1 Alphago game, I don't think makes it joseki.In fact, of course, Lee Sedol lost after playing this move, and this corner was a big problem for him.
01-15 12:42Source ??
01-05 22:04Matches http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:pdqcqdpcncnbmbocod
12-28 00:01weakness of attachment at S14
12-26 17:15i hate it, when there's just an IP as author, and no source!
12-26 11:02Terrible for white. Lives in gote and gets sealed in.
12-26 09:29Which ladder has to favor black as for this move to be sente?
12-26 04:52maybe white loses influence
12-23 09:37I have another joseki app that says L13 is necessary in response to s17. It seems to be based on Kogo's Joseki Dictionary. I like the r13 idea though.
12-13 22:07I'm confused as well. This seems like the only widely accepted Joseki for the high short approach, but it is a pretty bad outcome for white... but that approach is very popular so there must be something positive that can come out of it!
12-09 23:46uilhyjo;klvhjkb
12-07 21:59HelioSevenI don't think this is a mistake, I play this way all the time. Just a slightly faster variation than the main line, where black has to take gote to capture R17.
12-05 00:57Although these days, AlphaGo will go for 3-3.
12-04 18:25Why wouldn't O17 be an option for a follow up?
12-01 11:00HelioSevenThis seems like a good result for white?
12-01 10:58HelioSevenNevermind, seems alright for white, considering white chose the corner with S18.
12-01 10:39HelioSevenHaving a hard time finding fault with this.
11-28 09:12This is the common move when you look up this position in a pro game database (ps.waltheri.net/512292). So I'd argue that the respone at S12 is indeed the bad one.
11-27 23:22wtf
11-19 08:25HelioSevenPossible follow-ups to attack L17?
11-17 22:21Sakata Eio also played this move against Hashimoto Utaro in 1960, same response as KitaniIs this an old joseki?
11-17 21:45White dieded
11-14 13:34Is it good for black, though? AlphaGo plays this against itself
11-10 08:07:0
11-10 08:07:0 :0
11-10 08:04HI
11-10 03:31It is joseki, it's been played several times by pros when the closest stones to these are hoshis and komokus.
11-08 14:02현대의 수법
11-03 18:28How the fuck is this joseki?
11-02 10:46Why not?
11-01 19:29n0yYZzeG'));select pg_sleep(3); --
11-01 19:29wmdM8xrz')); waitfor delay '0:0:6' --
11-01 19:29uh0az8xG';select pg_sleep(6); --
11-01 19:29WowBA3tv');select pg_sleep(9); --
11-01 19:29(select(0)from(select(sleep(9)))v)/*'+(select(0)from(select(sleep(9)))v)+'"+(select(0)from(select(sleep(9)))v)+"*/
11-01 19:29i2umDQlJ'; waitfor delay '0:0:9' --
11-01 19:296ydENBwU'); waitfor delay '0:0:3' --
11-01 19:29-1" OR 3*2
11-01 19:29-1" OR 3*2>(0+5+794-794) --
11-01 19:29if(now()=sysdate(),sleep(9),0)/*'XOR(if(now()=sysdate(),sleep(9),0))OR'"XOR(if(now()=sysdate(),sleep(9),0))OR"*/
11-01 19:28-1' OR 3*2
11-01 19:28-1' OR 3*2>(0+5+149-149) --
11-01 19:28-1" OR 2+794-794-1=0+0+0+1 --
11-01 19:28-1" OR 3+794-794-1=0+0+0+1 --
11-01 19:28-1 OR 3*2
11-01 19:28-1 OR 3*2>(0+5+553-553)
11-01 19:28-1' OR 2+149-149-1=0+0+0+1 --
11-01 19:28-1' OR 3+149-149-1=0+0+0+1 --
11-01 19:28-1 OR 3*2
11-01 19:28-1 OR 3*2>(0+5+368-368) --
11-01 19:28-1 OR 2+553-553-1=0+0+0+1
11-01 19:28-1 OR 3+553-553-1=0+0+0+1
11-01 19:28Type%20new%20comment%20here
11-01 19:28Type%20new%20comment%20here
11-01 19:28-1 OR 2+368-368-1=0+0+0+1 --
11-01 19:28-1 OR 3+368-368-1=0+0+0+1 --
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10-30 14:44One of my opponents always play this move. I know it's not joseki but I don't really know how to respond. I usually connect solidly in P17.
10-30 12:43アテ打たずにヒキでは?
10-29 11:06why is this even here
10-15 10:46what if black tenuki here?
10-12 12:54정말 좋고여 지적하ㅓㄹ 부분이 없네여^^미;ㅓ이;ㅓㅎ;머ㅏㅣ어ㅣㅏㅁ러ㅣ;
10-10 00:59Nice joseki!
10-08 08:05Can you show your source about this being bad?
09-29 14:56wurfmaulI haven't got "Get Strong At Joseki", but q15 looks like a copying mistake to me. Sorry if I'm wrong.
09-16 18:43nbouscalBlack makes a mistake and White follows all ideal moves, and the result is good for Black? At least one of these moves needs to be relabeled.
09-10 12:51it is not joseki!!!!!
09-06 03:15wurfmaulI'm changing "Bad Move" to "Ideal Move" where it seems to me that white has (almost) no other choice.
08-31 03:13I played this variation and my invasion failed
08-29 12:15ffff
08-20 14:57if this is an overplay please change color in previous move
08-11 12:33The commentary talks about P15 and R14 which aren't even played at this point. Is there a mistake here?
08-10 00:36Alphago has played this move repeatedly in the self-play matches
08-08 08:06what
07-25 08:17HelioSevenIt's not necessarily a bad move, it's just a really uncommon strategy with no established patterns.
07-25 08:10Lol
07-23 20:42MekriffIs there any reason this isn't ideal?
07-15 19:11Can someone re-add this sequence of moves?
07-14 04:27What is the trick??
07-11 09:21Then if white passes again : W+komi ...
07-04 06:22오류가 너무 많네요
07-02 14:15I think it is bad move
06-30 07:48右から挟む?
06-30 07:46かかりに対して白は?
06-26 21:05Why not play S16 instead of O18 if the variations give the same result ? There must be a problem to play S16 so early...
06-26 21:04It's dangerous as it leaves a cut in S17.
06-23 18:23Why not just san-san?
06-20 22:07The ladder should not be broken because white has already played a tenuki move at d10
06-18 15:35MekriffIf there's no good continuation, wouldn't that make black 5 and 7 bad (or trick) moves?
06-17 08:45SampiHow can it be good for black is P17 is not correct?If is P17 is joseki then it should be added.
06-12 16:41I assume R17?
06-12 05:37What if white plays here? Is it OK?
06-05 21:45I assume s15?
06-05 12:55おまんこ、ちんかす、おっぱい
06-05 12:55これ見つけたら08024689147に電話して
06-05 12:53それなおまんこ
06-03 07:13This does not look good for white to me.
06-01 05:18why doesn't white want to take this?
05-28 22:26J+That was my question, shortly before deciding to register. I saw this in a game with a bot.
05-27 07:063
05-26 23:29So supposedly this kills the 3-3 invasion can anyone provide the variation that shows invasion does not work?
05-19 22:36yes
05-18 04:13HelioSevenI fail to see how white will live or do anything useful after black pushes down at S16...
05-17 08:00How to punish black in this case?
05-11 02:52This position occurred in the 2nd Chikurin Cup Final, between Takao Shinji 7p and Kono Rin 5p.
05-09 16:03what's next?
05-08 14:10so good!!!!!
05-07 23:27https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BCcxfyvh1w&list=PLqpN3-2FP-kI21lBD8R7Q9mwXQG_2sYnD&index=11
05-05 11:10GRAZY GOOD
05-04 22:22For when black wants to live outright in the corner
05-04 19:28jusuzippolhow to punish as white?
05-04 05:58Give links where you can study fuseki elsewhere if you're going to make a comment like that instead of actively destroying things for other people, assholes
05-01 08:07If top was more important than white shouldn't have played r17
04-30 09:19what's next?
04-21 19:52nbouscalThis only kills in ko, not outright
04-21 01:32HelioSevenSeems like it could be good or bad for both players depending on the context.
04-17 02:17wurfmaulAre r19 and r12 really better than r16?
04-14 16:06wurfmaulIs this a good result for white? If so, why? Is it still good if black has got a stone around r5?
04-11 15:37Seems too good for white to me. White is connected, has sente and it was blacks corner to begin with.
04-10 22:45Can you show the variation after r13? If the plan is to net the 2 stones with the q13 push being sente then my question is why this would be good for black if white is simply connecting on the first line.
04-06 15:43now what???
04-04 21:56yes it is
03-31 05:54Is this move any good... in the crazy stone game black had a stone on k16 and f 17 and q4..... while white has d16 and c14 ...and d4... its blacks turn and CS played q10.... the next move was o16 by white.... how does the game look?
03-26 18:09http://senseis.xmp.net/?Honte
03-25 22:04Just extend at R10 or Q10. Black is solid, but slow too.
03-23 18:11What's the meaning of this hane? Is there a problem if white just takes the S15 stone without this exchange?
03-23 17:56Where's the ladder? How does white punish if the ladder's bad for black?
03-23 09:22what's this?
03-16 16:27you have to play under black , even O17 is gonna be a good outcome
03-16 16:03how it's good, plz explain me
03-12 13:20ssdrerw
03-12 13:20wef
03-12 13:19wrew
03-09 15:25aynen
03-07 15:23It captures White
03-06 09:38what's next?
03-06 03:55Agree. Why is this bad? Please tell me how white should respond.
03-06 02:41백 거적떼기
03-04 22:10Is this really a bad move? Compare to the recommended answer to the trick move.
03-04 22:09Is this really better for black? Compare this to the recommended answer for the trick move!
03-03 17:37Black is not settled
03-03 13:25Or is it not a good move at all.It is very rarly played in pro games.
03-03 13:21Is this only a situational move?
02-28 13:38arse
02-28 10:33How does Black mistake turn into Good for Black with no White mistakes? There's got to be something wrong in this sequence.
02-28 08:52symmetrical
02-24 05:33nbouscalOld move, not played anymore because black's shape afterward is bad
02-16 15:40Динерштейн так играет
02-14 02:14The big mistake is to put yourself into atari!
02-03 19:58If black plays tenuki here what's white's best attack? It seems that white can easily get a ko by playing s18 and then connecting at s17, but is there a way to kill without a ko?
01-30 03:37On the other hand, if Black is able to negotiate an equitable solution without putting stones on the board, in territory scoring and in terms of points, that is a net win for both sides.
01-27 11:44AntitheusRealIs this a good move for black?
01-24 04:03Go Seigen Kitani Minoru, 1933
01-22 06:41LOL
01-21 05:14HelioSevenCan white use this to change direction if top is more important?
01-21 03:39what happened to all the variations that used to be here?
01-20 02:09Doesn't white need at least another move here to be alive inside? I really don't understand why this is better for white
01-19 09:45Em... what's next?..
01-17 14:22looks good to me!?
01-14 13:41rarandomraBlack can escape
01-12 05:25reverts to 'the dragon' enclosure
01-05 02:28"Master" is not God. This move has been played by pros for years, and still is. If it's good enough for them, it's more than good enough for anyone using this database.I've changed this from "mistake" back to "ideal move."
12-30 14:56Isn't this the first mistake by b?
12-30 07:35OVO....
12-27 00:21I vote no fuseki on a joseki encyclopedia... You can study fuseki elsewhere. This is about evenly dividing a corner.
12-06 15:17Nothing, I think L16 is not a good move. At least it is only a situational move. Should probably corrected.
12-06 13:35Is Q14 also a good move for white?
11-29 12:52Sorry this page remove...my mistake...
11-25 07:55why?
11-11 08:13if white dont play at s18, black can kill the corner
11-10 09:44pinky對黑有利
11-06 23:13I cannot find a single variation where white doesn't kill black's stones on the right.
11-03 07:30How does white live when black plays the 2-2
11-02 15:53I'd like to hear from a stronger player, but given that white has a substantial, safe corner, in addition to the opening on the right side, I'd easily call this good for white. Obviously black played for influence and doesn't mind white having corner territory, but if this was black's plan, wouldn't it have been better to open at 5-3 or 5-4 instead?
10-27 20:17This move was known in Ming dynasty China, see: https://gogameguru.com/seki-go-game-1/
10-26 18:50IMHO, pros think this is slightly good for Black. Specifically, Black's territory is worth more than White's influence.Of course, it depends on the situation.
10-23 20:17Why is this bad? CrazyStone just played this against me and I didn't know what to do. Decided to extend at R14 and the AI played N16, which was NOT a good outcome for me. So, if this is bad for black, what should I play as white to make it bad?
10-22 17:12“Alphago's Standard Opning”please source
10-21 05:46B will just play S10 here, you clown....
10-19 07:45Played by 花卉大姐姐 , 6p against 生活日报, 5p in 2004, so the move can't be very bad. (The game is on Eidogo. 花卉大姐姐 won the game by 7.5 points after giving 7.5 komi.)
10-16 15:42It's too good for to be a joseki so it's a punishment.
10-11 06:05흑이 좋ㅇㅏ
10-03 11:08What the hell?
10-02 14:09What would be getting tricked? The cut seems like basic instinct to me. Maybe this is just a mistake, not a trick move?
09-25 21:33ah bon
09-25 21:23couocu
09-23 10:03뒤에 더 없나요
09-17 19:36Wat a gomoku
09-13 15:26Frank SegersIn the years 1980 the most common response was on the fourth line (O16)
09-12 22:36What's this ? Seriously ?
09-04 22:19Vrowniewhat is this???????
09-03 22:27t14 =ko?
09-01 22:42Pros almost never play 4-space extension from two stones.
08-26 13:31目外し使い俺
08-26 13:30たしかに
08-23 22:07Black O19 seems like a bad move to me.
08-22 04:10우와 최고입니다.
08-17 06:56It says 1 space high pincer, you can't find it in old games and it leads to immediate battles often.
08-16 18:35I tried that one in a 3 stone handicapp game (Color were reversed, I was the weaker player). I did not dare to play the standard double hane (I did not know it was standard). My opponent (2d) did not think it was good. If you want to cut here, it's probably better to cut sooner, with the double hane.In our game, I treated this cutting stone lightly, and ended up loosing it for a profit elsewhere.In my case, I treated this cutting stone lightly, and ended up loosing it for a profit.
08-14 19:45How w can kill?
08-14 17:32I mostly play here, because I don't know the other joseki.Masamune KGS 6k
08-14 10:56Pourquoi honte ?
08-13 09:45Why is it good for white ?
08-08 17:27A refutation evaluated good for Black?
08-08 15:14So what is the mistake of white ?
08-08 04:55HaroldJIncandenzaIf the White L17 stone is at K17, then Black stone at Q13 aims to invade at N16
08-07 09:16wurfmaulI'm removing the "position is settled" label, because I don't like how all subsequent sequences are called "continuation". --wurfmaul
08-07 08:42Black's N15 intends to build the right side. What if white does this in an attempt to make sabaki there and have black's R15 stones just end up useless, running along dame points, while white has a group on both sides?
08-04 12:39この場面右辺下に黒有れば1より2の方がいいと思いますけど、皆さんどう思いますか?
08-04 12:35これは黒有利?皆さんどうですか?
08-01 21:07ArzakCould one add more variations please ? Thank you
07-21 07:59Now ladderbreaker
07-16 17:43What is the continuation here?
07-14 08:59Someone added white's move at S17 as a question. I looked into some variations and this was the best result I could find. If anyone can find a better result for either player, please remove this variation and add that instead.If white is strong enough on the outside to endanger either of the black groups, I suppose black would let white live in the corner by playing S19 at Q18 instead. This lets white live safely with 2 points, while black is very thick. This would be a bad result for white in general, though if black has any supporting strength on the sides, I'm inclined to think this variation would be even worse for white.
07-14 08:37...wtf even is this
07-10 21:20where has move 2 gone? 1, 3, 4?
07-02 10:20?
07-01 20:37Locally I think it's actually slightly better for white. Black has all sorts of bad aji and white has played one less move here.
07-01 06:27really joseki? any source?
06-30 22:09How is this a bad move?
06-30 20:58I'm a beginner, so forgive my insolence, but this is a game of Go, and not Joseki, right?
06-30 19:41May I ask why this is a mistake?
06-29 03:04So good for black, getting a bomber in sente
06-28 08:42Can black tenuki here?
06-28 08:40Works if black has the ladder, no?
06-24 08:58What is the continuation?
06-22 13:01Why is this a bad move?
06-15 14:54And if the ladder works for b?
06-13 00:48Aren't these white stones going to die? I don't understand.
06-12 13:14._.
06-09 16:11Why is this sequence a refutation of the Q16 trick play if it's good for white?
06-09 10:08I checked pro games and this move doesn't seem to make an appearance. Why is that?
06-04 22:44This is called white's alternative reply on senseis, and is not labelled as a mistake. Who is right?
05-23 12:23Black is really good right now position wise. The problem is that White has sente and can cut at Q15
05-23 12:10White looks like sht. Open skirt and little influence.
05-22 22:49AlphaGo
05-17 05:28Why wait 14 moves to connect or, for white, not capture these stones?
05-14 03:33
05-13 15:53최고!!! 정석공부 여기서 해야지
05-06 15:01crodnuWhy is this a bad move?
05-04 13:11What would happen if B tenuki?
05-02 09:17Any invasion for the top side?
05-02 09:08No more joseki?
05-02 09:01Isn't this supposed to be good as well?
05-02 09:00So, what's the follow up?
05-01 11:28Connection at P16 is marked as avoiding the trick, but now only bad move for black is shown. Is there a good move?
04-30 21:13"Good for black", and yet all the moves leading here are marked ideal. Can't really all be ideal for white..
04-29 09:11Lowly SDK, but after WR13, BR15 forces WS15, then BQ13 seals
04-24 07:36This is where Black needs a stone to make this joseki less good for White, not where White can move next
04-21 20:04How is this slightly good for white when the sequence gets 2 caps for black and the corner? It seems slightly BAD for white.
04-14 12:11Why bad
04-14 09:15If this is good for black, was white P16 a mistake?
04-12 12:35진짜잼있다
04-10 15:41Can white kill black from this point? from what I see, i can only get a ko
04-07 13:20iopqsomeone deleted this
04-04 01:40G.TesséI can't see why R18 is so important for B. Does W have special continuation here ?
04-04 01:40G.TesséI can't see why R18 is so important for B. Does W have special continuation here ?
04-03 12:37"This once was a Joseki, but it is not anymore. Check recent pro games, you won't find this pattern (only in games of old or weak pros). [Hwang In-Seong, 7d]"This seems wrong, or someone has suggestions on what to play else? Tenuki? Because many recent pro games still have this pattern or similar ones
03-26 11:00iopqIf black has the ladder, this is bad for white, if black DOESN'T have the ladder, this is bad for black. This can't be joseki.
03-26 10:51iopqHow is this joseki? Seems awful for white
03-23 04:17c175353If white plays at [O16] black can then connect at [R15], white is heavy.If white extends at [N15], black could tenuki.
03-14 17:59What does this tell you? "No move" is "good move"!
03-08 23:02How should w answer locally?
03-07 07:11Playing both of these seems to give white a lot of options, by playing either 3-4 point, depending on the direction he wants strength.
03-07 06:57c175353Most likely in Fuseki it is good for white. White gets to play two moves elsewhere.
03-04 18:54Why is N15 a bad move?It's the same choice as in: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:qdodmcqcrcpcqgrerdmdldqepepdqfpfoenfrfneselcnckdlekblbkcndlfobqereofqembnblaqb
02-29 15:02The only proposition is a bad move. Does this mean black should pass here ? In which case I think it should be written
02-26 11:25한국인은없네... 정말좋은사이트 굿
02-22 06:28Can someone add follow ups?
02-21 15:18...
02-15 11:21this is a nonsense variation
02-14 19:59Joseki?
02-13 18:41???
02-13 10:58Yunxuan Li posted a video about this move on YouTube recently (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mJqE4KftwM). He describes it as "an actual move" rather than a trick play. I suppose it is akin to this 5-4 move (http://eidogo.com/#1otueOGLw) which is a trick play without drawback as the refutation simply collapses back into the regular variation (where black would play hane rather than extend), but if white makes a mistake it has bad consequences, i.e. there is potential to get tricked.
02-09 04:55smartestrobotThis is not joseki, moves unrelated to the upper right are represented by "PASS"
02-09 04:55smartestrobotThis is not joseki, moves unrelated to the upper right are represented by "PASS"
02-09 04:55smartestrobotThis is not joseki, moves unrelated to the upper right are represented by "PASS"
02-09 04:55和也smartestrobotさんは布石の定石って言葉を知らないのですか?
02-09 04:55smartestrobotThis is not joseki, moves unrelated to the upper right are represented by "PASS"
02-09 04:54smartestrobotThis is not joseki, moves unrelated to the upper right are represented by "PASS"
02-09 04:54smartestrobotThis is not joseki.
02-09 04:37smartestrobotStop adding cross-board moves unless it's VERY important.
02-08 23:27Why is this follow up position deleted?
02-03 13:43It appears the reason it is no longer joseki is because it is a bad result for black so it is black who shouldn't play this way.
02-02 13:11So this is beneficial for both black and white. seems legit
01-29 00:57ArzakHaylee game : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBv7XpiEY44
01-26 13:23ashikaAndroidですが拡大してタップすると違う箇所がタップされます。定石検索がしにくくなった。。。
01-15 23:43wow!
01-14 17:58w will just connect and the attack doesn't seems playeble for b
01-14 04:51This appears to be less good than O15 first
01-14 04:23So how can it be 'good for black'?
01-14 04:22Can't be better than the other variation where black plays O15, surely?
12-31 15:58Yes, the move is poor locally, but a good invasion point after the surroundings have been played out, and also used in handicap games.
12-28 05:36Why not go all-out with the Japanese and say: "When white uses the keima _gakari_ ..."
12-25 22:37Why is this a bad move?
12-24 13:27前の手では互角のワカレとのこと。右下の状況によるということ?
12-20 00:26This is bad because there is no good way to continue after black S17, whereas R14 has the option of Q13 to settle
12-17 19:33isn't it more accurate to play o19 than n19?
12-17 19:32isn't it more accurate to play o19 than n19?
12-10 09:58Black already had the corner and gains only a few more points by cutting, while white's shape on the outside gets thicker.
11-30 11:09Why is this bad for black?
11-29 20:13How is this move bad? White is floating, and black has a base.
11-10 09:26how to kill?
11-06 14:03That's not clutter - why should you think of it as such? What's wrong with including fusekipatterns on a site DEDICATED to common patterns?
11-06 10:45There seems to be a tendency lately by certain individuals to add long-winded fuseki sprawling all around the board, whereas I think doing so adds nothing of value. Is there consensus on this? Is there really ever a point to add a response move on an opposite corner of the board? Do we welcome this clutter?
11-06 07:22Fuck off with that
11-06 07:22Who the hell decided to delete all the moves here? Fuck off with what you think josekipedia should be.
11-06 05:39People need to stop adding this crap. This is josekipedia, not fusekipedia. Playing elsewhere is covered with the "PASS" option. If we start adding stuff at the opposite end of the board (other than ladder markers perhaps), there will be no end to the crap permissible here.
11-04 00:46Why?
10-26 20:57Why?
10-19 21:17Is it good for w?
10-18 09:58ZedWebヾ(@⌒ー⌒@)ノ
10-17 04:10:)
10-17 02:34ZedWebСтранный ход :)
10-16 16:47this move is wrong.b can play at 017 and w will lose the capturing race
10-16 05:49Oomokuhuzashi
10-13 05:41don't understand why is it just good move compare with another position
10-11 14:58this may not sente
10-10 01:33Why is this only good?
10-09 22:34Why black shoud close his dame? Mb O16 first?
10-09 13:24why is this position set in trick move but is not ideal or good move? any problem?
10-03 02:28Is there any information on why this is a bad move? I'm having trouble reading it out, and would appreciate some guidance.
10-01 11:04Mokuhazushi my favorite :)
09-29 02:49wieso ist es ein mehrfacher Fehler für Schwarz wenn die Position etwas besser für Schwarz ist?
09-23 21:16why dont u fuck yourself bitchass
09-23 13:36iopqwhite doesn't seem to be alive unconditionally yet
09-22 12:57この後の正しい進行を教えてください。
09-22 12:55この後の正しい進行を教えてください。
09-18 21:48why is 1 bad, iknow there are maybe "bigger" moves aroundthe board
09-10 16:29Fuck your feelings
09-10 07:51Вопрос :)
09-10 07:48Жадно
09-06 01:37are u stupid whos the over concentrated white or black?
09-05 07:42wht
08-27 17:55I don't understand: the resulting position looks identical to having played at P16, but with one less point for white...
08-27 13:19See https://badukmovies.com/episodes/a-peek-around-the-corner
08-27 13:04See https://badukmovies.com/episodes/a-peek-around-the-corner
08-25 16:58what?
08-25 04:52I'm sure there are subtleties here that I can't address, but the 3rd line vs. 4th line difference depends a great deal on the outside situation. This move leaves more threats for white (e.g. R12 later on) than a 3rd line stone would, but if black already has stones nearby on the right side, black wouldn't generally need to worry about white coming underneath, or otherwise terrorizing this stone. Also, a 3rd line stone leaves little development potential and can be pressed down. So if black is particularly concerned about that, this move could be right.
08-20 05:54hello people. Is there a sgf-editor that has color coding feautre like this?
08-16 18:37Awesome.
08-14 16:55Sampi, Black is safe and sound. The corner is not THAT big to be worried about. Plus black takes sente.
08-13 00:02Appeared in Tuo Jiaxie vs. Choi Cheolhan 2015 Kuksu Mountains Team Tournament, round 1
08-11 01:00what are good follow-ups here for W and B?
08-02 20:12Unless you have stones on top left side or solidly around k16 then this move in gote is not good since going in is very easy for black which means you need to make an extra to move to make a lof of territory yours also you end in gote...so solid move but too slow..the (2) respoence is another example if white double hane white needs something around k16 to make the p16 stones valuable
07-31 10:40thanks josekipedia
07-30 04:34Should black treat this the same as a one space jump, or is this exploitable?
07-28 20:40PS. Variation W-S14, B-S13, W-S12, B-T13, W-R13 depends on the ladder. Another variations looks that doesn't work for black.
07-28 20:33I can't find good continuation for black after white's S14. Maybe black P14 wasn't good move?
07-24 23:17Go Seigen played this move against Kitani Minoru in 1957. Kitani's response was Q15.
07-16 10:03why is this bad?
07-06 06:38This occurs in Daniel Gourdeau (B) vs. Ben Lockhart (W) AGA Pro Qualification Tournament 2014.
07-04 07:43According to Daily Joseki Pro Library, this is not being played by pros. Also, the following sequences here are both marked as bad. I suggest to remove this move or mark it as bad, too
07-01 21:20AND NOW WHAT?!
07-01 14:4976.126.210.135 What JosekiPedia is Bullshit? Go cry and talk to ur mom while ur fucking with her about why ur such a an asshole u little kids should go in a hole ur a fucking piece of donkeyshit
06-28 00:13black good
06-25 22:26why is it better for white?
06-24 15:00эта дзёсэки показана в книге Сюкаку Такагава, 9 дан, "Санрэнсэй" . Тест 9 стр.113. Автор пишет что это - цуке-ноби дзёсэки.
06-19 10:35what if p16 instead of Q13
06-12 21:59black can answer at S13 to gain enough libs to capture the corner
06-12 10:12Can someone explain why/how this is good for white?
06-07 10:19これyahooの囲碁でよく打たれてるけど白が良くなってる所を見た事が無い
06-06 08:26wighterhello
06-05 09:04This move disappeared in pros game,its not a good move anymore
05-30 18:41The attachement recently disappeared in pros game
05-27 01:10josekipedia is bullshit
05-24 16:01Anyone else waiting for someone who actually knows this stuff to provide the non-tenuki variations? :D
05-24 00:46What if black passes here?
05-14 02:17wighterI don't know why...
05-09 14:41uhhhh pretty simple u idiot 1 can just block it of good job on ur go skills
04-30 14:24gotaristDoesn't this seem a bit too good for white?
04-27 23:57Have black play R15 and you'll know
04-25 22:57mkmatlockThere isn't a label A in the diagram, but it is mentioned.
04-22 19:55So where is the tesuji?
04-22 16:37josekipedia is awesome
04-18 13:25Depending on the situation this move can be good
04-05 21:25Question: Why is this move described as bad for black? If so, what should white do to punish black locally?Could someone explain that for me please as I have just played this as white, and all the outcomes seem quite good for black to me.
03-29 07:03黒は手抜きできない
03-29 05:09あsふぁsf
03-28 18:06This is not a trap!
03-26 08:04^^...
03-25 20:32how is this not a fucking trick? Black can just play star point and use that other piece for advantage in later moves if white tries to take the corner! U fucking dumbass bitches with no brains
03-23 21:15whats i tried
03-14 20:23nr42This is definitely not ideal
02-28 09:23It would be good to see proper white reaction to this.
02-23 16:26Sorry, I don't see how White can avoid this variation...?
02-20 04:25What the heck happened to all of the normal variations here? surely p16 is the most common response for white, no?
02-18 12:46English translation : I have the impression that this move allow white to either live in the corner or connect by taking Q16.
02-18 12:45J'ai l'impression que cette réponse de blanc lui permet de vivre dans le coin ou de se connecter en prenant la pierre Q16, au choix de noir.
02-17 13:33alert("xss");
02-17 11:58Played by Huu Phuoc Nguyen [2d] (white) vs Tanguy Le Calvé [5d] (black) during the finale of the Maitre Lim cup (France team amateur championship).
02-14 20:38How does w continue here?
02-13 13:26So if neither 1 nor 2 are joseki anymore, and 3 and 4 are mistakes, what is the best follow up here?
02-08 18:54Josekipedia is amazing :)
02-04 20:10nr42it can't really be an "ideal move", if white collapses
02-02 11:10R19, S19, P19, R18 alive
01-30 18:13Friend always uses this against me, have no idea how to respond
01-30 15:50Possible si le shicho est bon pour blanc.
01-30 15:47Ça ne peut pas être équitable.
01-25 22:22why does black not t18 now?
01-21 11:03Makes life? Really? What about black R19, white S19, black P19, white Q19, black R18? This move seems like a big mistake. White perhaps should have played R19 instead?
01-17 09:57Q11あたりに構えればほぼ互角だと思うのですが。
01-17 09:57Q11値に構えればほぼ互角だと思うのですが。
01-17 09:56普通の手で悪いとは思わないのですが悪手なんですか?
01-16 23:53Dude WTF?? explain god dammit why is each move necessary?
01-16 12:32和也この手は戦いが好きな人向けですね。後に逃げ合いになるパターンが多いので。
01-14 06:46um now what?
01-13 14:49White plays R19?
01-09 02:01
01-09 01:55
01-09 01:54
01-06 10:12thepaperi'd say it's the double hane. Still, his comment is quite strange, since white will be fully alive
12-27 00:10This is generally for joseki?
12-27 00:08Это вообще по джосеки?
12-22 09:40Depends on the surrounding situation
12-16 19:13????
12-15 14:32why is this a mistake? yes black leaves in gote, but it's a 20 point corner that isn't completely surrounded yet
12-14 20:30?
12-09 20:10seems bad for white
12-09 14:27then black T18, and white is gote
11-30 04:51If black O17, then white Q15 captures 3 black stones.
11-27 19:52nr42Why was this position removed?
11-23 12:31Whats the new one then??
11-19 15:33Why ??? Its terrible for black if white R18, Son Geungi noob or misunderstood?????
11-15 12:07How?
11-13 15:01I don't know how to link positions, but some possible continuations are shown in the situation where b doesn't allow a double approach
11-10 23:17I don't like this. Even if black did want to play near center, why play like this. It is over-concentrated. White gets 3/4 corners this way. No way this should be "Joseki"
11-10 23:12This seems too good for black....
11-05 12:58how to answer?
11-01 20:12comment distinguer 3 directions de courses
10-29 02:05slack is right. Unless white is strong nearby this is slow.
10-21 18:17SampiIs this move really a mistake? It heavily depends on the ladder and on the surrounding stones, it has been played professionally, see variation
10-11 15:20from 1 of Honinbo Dosaku records
10-07 18:47jokepis this a possible move?
10-07 18:47jokepwhat is the continuation here for black?
10-02 02:11jesus.. wth is this?
09-28 19:57How is this pushing from behind and "best move"?
09-27 07:00元の譜とは白黒入れ替わっているのでは?
09-25 19:01Was it GNU Go who played this? GNU go did exactly this to me (at max level)
09-17 16:05how is it bad?
09-13 09:43be carreful of o16
09-09 12:07T15 is sente point for W.( in YOSE time)
09-09 12:04Without Q14,W can begin a motion with S14. So this is HONTE. In a real game, if there are some B stone around here ,W's motion won't be a fear for B so Q14 is slack and slow.
09-09 12:02Without Q14,W can begin a motion with S14. So this is HONTE. In a real game, if there are some B stone around here ,W's motion won't be a fear for B so Q14 is slack and slow.
09-09 11:53T15 is sente point for W.( in YOSE time)
09-09 11:51T15 is sente point for W.( in YOSE time)
09-05 20:42dawnbellThis is not a trick play as it can't be punished - it is just an extansion and a forcing move.
09-05 16:51@Nhane exactly! And adum's reply seems completely off. If black plays S19, he kills the white group in the corner! He could do it also instead of this last move at N17! This joseki looks like complete nonsense.
09-03 13:29Seems that the Joseki shouldn't end here, black can invade at T14 and the white stones at R15, R16 will be useless then!Please follow the discussion at http://boardgames.stackexchange.com/q/18795/1845
09-03 06:39この手も当然ある
09-03 06:33この手も当然ある
09-01 05:43Black doesn't have to play r13, they can be more aggressive
09-01 05:31why is this a mistake?
08-26 03:30Why is every move by white labled bad here after he falls for the trick? Surely 1 is the ideal move in THIS situation barring the fact he made a mistake earlier.
08-11 04:03jokepHow is the continuation here?
08-10 11:11Why are you calling honte slack and slow?
08-04 23:28can white play S9 instead of P7 to settle his position ?
07-31 22:31It seems like all the modern patterns are black pincers. I'm interested to know when to use each. In the mean time it's self study!
07-29 09:59How is 2 considered an Ideal move if the only follow up ends as good for black?
07-28 22:34Sampithanks, thats really helpful, no need for a sequence or anything...
07-28 22:31SampiI appreciate that you are answering question LiJian, but can we get an explanation? a short sequence? something?
07-27 17:25In my opinion, the "slightly good" or "favourable for" comments are mainly for high dan + pro players who can use influence well.
07-25 20:08It looks like maybe the r9 stone is meant to be at Q10 instead?
07-18 23:18This isn't seki in the slightest. Lol the w group is already dead.
07-16 04:02wtf
07-13 08:54BrilliantIf we're discussing the numbering of the moves on the agreement that they are ordered generally by frequency of play, the difference between tengen and q10 seems trivial compared to the fact that someone has rated the 5-5 point higher than the 3-5 point. This is unrealistic - the 5-5 point is both more frequently and probably worse in an objective sense than 3-5.
07-13 08:09BrilliantChanged to bad on the basis that this move is a violation of everything anyone has ever known about Go. White can achieve nothing.
07-11 12:36Tengen isn't better than q10. The numbers are frequency of play, not actually how good they are.
07-10 11:18Here is the start of a famous tsumego. About a 4k level tsumego I believe. It took me about 5 minutes to solve whne I first got it, and the move that a 30k would play would be the first move XD t14 took me by surprise when I found it.
07-10 11:17Kills. Actually this is a famous tsumego
07-05 02:08この次堂打ちますか? 
07-01 16:15GuvnorWhat's blacks best move?
06-29 13:21I think leaving the order 4-3, 4-4, 3-3, and then the rest (that order can be switched) is fine. 4-3 is more important historically, and probably most played historically (sparce game records). plus move locations by 1st move and overall are vastly different. 3-3 then gets left at 3rd because it is far more important to 13x13 than any of the outer moves is to 19x19PS this joseki dictionary could easily double as a fuseki dictionary as well if people wanted it to
06-27 02:43dkillerI think the point is that black has a big wall
06-24 16:43seki?
06-11 04:08yt
06-07 07:34why is tengen better than Q10???
06-01 10:11I get the impression this would be good for white, since he has solid corner points and black's right side formation (usually seen in the kobayashi opening) has been destroyed.
05-28 10:18joseki have different results. When playing a joseki you should bear in mind what the end result is. Each individual joseki has a time and a place, very few / no joseki ends with a perfectly even result for both sides. Especially when sente is accounted for.
05-23 08:31귀 실리가 커서 백이 좋습니다
05-20 09:08??
05-20 01:23???
05-14 13:33aha
05-14 07:02why??
05-13 05:35why bad????
05-11 11:20If better for white, why joseki?
05-10 06:08good for black
05-09 17:48Had this show up in a game. Wasn't sure how to respond. Any thoughts?
05-09 10:39P17 ideal, see Peng Quan 7p (Black) vs. Mi Yuting 9p 9th May 2014.
05-04 14:34what does Q18 achieve, I would rather play wM17?
05-02 09:40looks really weird, source?
05-02 09:40source?
05-01 05:45Source??
04-28 15:51??
04-28 15:44if this is joseki, and all moves are marked as ideal, why does black still end up better?
04-28 15:41?
04-27 13:22??
04-26 09:39what wrong order, why are all moves marked as ideal then?
04-25 14:26continuation???
04-19 06:46How to continue?
04-17 16:23DBrittMoved to ideal, as it's the most common non-tenuki response in GoGoD database
04-14 17:21I don't quite understand how this is good for w. O18 seems obvious for b, and I cannot find a sequence that I like as w. Am I missing something here?
04-14 14:48DBrittThis pattern is unsourced and doesn't appear in GoGoD. It also ends with a pass and no tags. Probably isn't joseki.
04-14 14:36DBrittChanged to "good" because Black has a "slightly good" variation available and I don't see any games with this pattern in GoGoD.
04-14 10:16DBrittWhite does not play this very often at all, suggesting that the comment about the "drawback" is not totally correct. Yes it is a drawback, but there seems to be enough benefit that W doesn't like this line.
04-14 09:50DBrittThis move doesn't appear in any games in the GoGoD database. Should it be moved to Good?
04-14 09:49DBrittThis move isn't found in any games in the GoGoD database. Should it be moved to Good? Tewari is not a valid analysis to determine whether something is ideal.
04-14 09:48DBrittMoved to ideal as this and Q17 are the most common followups in GoGoD by far. White at R16 is actually not the most common response.. K17 is. It appears being sealed in the corner isn't good enough for White.
04-14 09:37DBrittThis line is unsourced and does not appear in the GoGoD database in any game. Moved to "Good" until a source is added.
04-13 18:17SampiPosition is settled? Are you serious, LiJian?
04-12 21:52I don't get the greens on the upper left. This is Josekipedia, not Fusekipedia, right? Shouldn't they be removed?
04-12 21:49I think a couple changes to the "empty board" page should be considered.1) renumber the moves to correspond to frequency in pro games. (which would be: 4-4, 3-4, 3-5, 3-3, 4-5, tengen, 5-5, 4-6, etc. according to the GoGoD database)2) Moves other than the 8 I list above should really be "good" rather than "ideal." They are incredibly rare in pro games.Are there any objections to those changes?
04-07 07:08is the follow up after q18 ´mistake something like r17?
04-06 15:37I changed white n16 to "mistake" because it doesn't make sense for me without o14, and at ps.waltheri.net the only continuation is white o17, but that page has only 4 games with this sequence in the database, and I'm just a 1kyu.
04-05 23:46The question is why is it being tagged ideal?
04-04 08:22how is this a trick move?
03-23 13:30PericlesThis joseki was played between Fan Hui 2p and Alexander Dinerstein during the Ing Memorial cup in 2009. Black next played at s16 (killed the corner) and white took outside influence.
03-21 11:59if black follow with P 13 how to treat?
03-17 13:48Black shouldn't be able to tenuki here, so there must be some kind of follow up. Please show the follow up.
03-15 16:35Please explain the joke, what does this mean?
03-15 14:53hihi
03-12 14:37If white already is strong around R10?
03-10 09:24W Q17 was labeled as requiring a favorable ladder.
03-09 15:49Yes, this is joseki (black usually plays when he wants to tenuki after white 1).
03-07 15:02draculaI would tend to think this would work if black had the ladder.
03-07 15:01draculaWhat's the difference between this and the 3 space extension? When is this played?
03-07 14:56draculaCheck your source. "White can tenuki" cannot be what they meant to say. It is black's turn!
03-07 14:51draculaSince this is labelled as "A" why does it not have any follow up moves shown?
02-18 19:51When would this be better than one closer? Doesn't this violate the proverb without reason?
02-18 09:00GillisI never really thought of this enclosure as an ideal move simply because it's hardly an enclosure. Its still so easy to invade and most of the time it is sente. I usually tend to play a move like the ogeima when I want to make an severe attack on a stone / group nearby. But if I could I would much rather do it with a keima.Though I remember once I played the ogeima enclosure on a rather open board. I think the idea behind it was that I needed to make the corner somewhat stronger (surrounded from distance from both sides of 4-4) but most of all I wanted to avoid a kakari and invite a 3-3 invasion instead because I had good use for the influence. Yet again, I find myself playing this rarely. I would be happier seeing this move considered a "situational move".
02-16 21:46ma.davidjI've seen this played many times at my low SDK levels. Is it too slow? Should black tenuki?
02-16 14:55This pattern is marked as "multiple errors from white" but ends with white annihilating black's corner in case he has a favourable ladder. IMHO it needs to be relabelled.
02-13 19:54この後の手が解からない
02-13 19:53この後の手が解からない
02-10 11:16selam dostlar
02-07 11:15Actually, pros do occasionally play this even when black has the top left. Object though, is not to severely attack black like in handicap games; it's to take the corner territory.
02-05 14:48What is the tesuji that the comments refer to?
02-04 18:30What now?
01-24 15:02PatternistWhat the..
01-19 01:56秀作のコスミではない
01-18 14:13PatternistWhite collapses regardless of the ladder
01-14 05:32PatternistIt would be necessary to somehow ban this kid from messing around it seems. And please stop using Japanese people. Only few can understand ya
01-14 02:27どうかふざけないで欲しいこんな手が定石であるはずがないnobody use this move.so, this is not a joseki. I want this to be deleted.
01-13 08:54PatternistPossibly becuase it is marked wrong?
01-13 05:21PatternistYi Changho 9p, Kim Sungryong 9p, Kim Youngwhan 9p all classified this move as a trick move in their own treat-related lectures(Yi in his book)
01-12 08:33PatternistWhy are there so many people here writing in Japanese? There are only small number of people who can read Jap.
01-12 07:21PatternistIt kills time of next person who has to fix this label
01-11 22:52PatternistSeems pretty good. But where's the source?
01-11 01:49こんにちは
01-03 10:45PatternistAgain Takemiya Masaki 9p doesn't say anything about the ladder situation, so I will just leave it as it is in his book.
01-02 13:50PatternistTakemiya Masaki 9p doesn't say anything about the ladder. So I will just leave it as it is in the book.
01-01 10:48It looks like 1 may not always be good, for example with supporting black stones on top. Can someone please elaborate on this and make explicit under exactly what circumstances the invading white stones are able to live? Thanks.
01-01 10:45It looks as though black can kill white if he has supporting stones at the top. Can we have some commentary on this please?
12-25 18:40PatternistOk. Most go players would've thought about this kind of opening. Interestingly, someone questioned about this opening to Son Geungi 4dan pro, in one of his Daum TVpot Lecture Series and he explained why this is not an effective play for black. Maybe I will add it to this someday.
12-22 00:35PatternistThat proverb is sadly outdated at least with 4-4 josekis.
12-18 08:55SampiThanks Patternist, I have edited some variations leading up to your refutation to include the old joseki and the moves leading to the trick play.
12-17 22:59PatternistOf course this is much better result for black. This is said to be bad when black has an additional stone at k16
12-16 14:33Patternistsource?
12-16 11:38PatternistI don't see any problem there. Except white s13 becomes almost sente.
12-16 11:34PatternistIt is just a slack.
12-16 11:23PatternistThis is the correct move. Nice and simple. You don't see this from pro players since black never plays p17 from the first place. I have seen Choi Cheolhan 9p using p17 in an event match against Park Yeonghoon 9p once though. Anyway, this is the correct move.
12-15 19:59bootmiiI would like to see some refutations here.
12-14 18:22PatternistI will mark it bad
12-13 08:11PatternistYou're right. Im not sure what I was thinking when I wrote that description. I'll correct it. Thank you
12-12 16:05SampiIf black collapses, why is the whole sequence marked as ideal?
12-11 04:12GillisAny source on this? Otherwise I'd say Situation move only.
12-10 22:27bootmiiIf black can tenuki, why isn't that continuation on the wiki?
12-09 08:39PatternistThe description for this approach is old.. that is the theory from go seigen days
12-06 18:06SampiIf it is good for white, it should not be marked as Ideal, should it?
12-06 18:01SampiLook at path:qdodmcqcrdpc , it marks Q17 is wrong. Considering An Youngil said the resulting variation is "slightly good for black", should Q17 be considered "Good" or "Bad"? In any case, I don't think it should be considered Ideal.
12-02 22:04Nathan KrachI hope someone else will add pro discussion for these games. I have only high amateur dans discussing standard responses to daidaigeima in this video:https://badukmovies.com/episodes/the-weakness-of-the-daidaigeima-part-1
11-30 21:08Koldunicкак ответить?
11-26 14:53PatternistKim Seungjae 6p has different opinion here. Since he is ranked far higher compare to Kim Yeongsam 9p nowdays, I will go with his opinion.
11-26 14:13PatternistJust for reference. In recent pro games, Q13,R15,P14,K17(situational) are the most commonly played moves. Q12 was popular for a while but for some reason not being used for now. P13 is occasionally played. P12 is a situational move that's used generally when black has an additional stone at Q10. Hope it makes things a bit simpler.
11-24 07:25Position is even! Lol
11-23 21:24I need some info on this.
11-23 21:21This position is labellled as a mistake by black followed by a refutation by white, but the comment says "good for black". This can't be right.
11-20 09:58What now??
11-20 02:00Source?
11-19 19:46PatternistSource?
11-19 11:22Need some comment on the status of this move, whether it be a trick play, good move, joseki, or what, and allso on its followup(s).
11-17 14:25qwijsfn;a
11-16 10:23Never saw this in pro games with long time settings, sure this is considered even?
11-14 02:52PatternistWhite can minimized effect of black's thickness by playing somewhere on the right side since he has sente.
11-14 02:51PatternistUsually, this is considered slightly better for white. Positioning of N16 for black is so inefficient.
11-11 21:30hello, may i ask how this works?
11-11 16:17Good for B
11-10 14:33Dude, "A", "B", and "C" are not labeled. Please label these!
11-09 17:18I need some comment on why this is bad and the refutation is good. It looks like black develops a huge amount of thickness.
11-09 16:21What's wrong with here?
11-09 12:06Source?
11-08 15:151がよいのは何故
11-07 20:41Someone needs to set the status of this sequence and give some commentary. Not knowing this sequence resulted in a huge loss for me.
11-05 21:29Since this looks settled for black, some discussion of follow ups for white if black passes would be good.
11-05 20:16If black and white both tenuki, this looks like a non-loss making ko threat.
11-05 20:13What's wrong with this? Isn't this move too big to be ommitted? Why would "A" be bigger?
11-05 20:09The comment on the R10 move says "this move can also be at A". This move is A, and so it needs to be included here.
11-05 14:07Source?
11-03 05:06But what if the ladder isn't working for black?
10-30 12:15Sources?
10-29 08:36PatternistI have to change this due to inaccuracy.
10-21 17:38Ok, but why is this a "good sequence" and not joseki? Black has good profit, what does white have?
10-18 15:14idea for both
10-18 15:14B2Bomber is under formation!
10-15 03:41Source?
10-15 03:41Why is this marked ideal??
10-15 03:41??
10-14 04:20Is this the only move that kills R17?
10-13 07:42PatternistStill being played pretty frequently. Usually when white is strong so black wants to avoid fight.
10-13 06:23PatternistThis is played if white has strong influence somewhere.
10-12 02:54PatternistI had to erase the description : good for black. When multiple time world champion suggests that this is how white should play unless black is very strong on the outside.
10-10 14:47Options?
10-10 11:05Why is this called called modern pattern? It's have been around for ages lol
10-09 10:54This says old pattern, whats a new one?
10-09 10:16Continuation?
10-07 19:15If B plays like this, it reverts back to when b plays S15 instead of S17? If this is the only possible variation, this should be the best choice for white.
10-07 13:19What now?
10-07 11:47Source??
10-07 11:24What weaknesses?
10-07 11:06Komoku should be labeled joseki. This looks like vandalism or an accident. It would require a radical change in go theory for komoku to stop being joseki. Someone please fix this.
10-05 20:08Fandekaspagreed, I don't see anything killed here...
10-05 18:54PatternistIt's ko. Do you know what that is?
10-05 14:52PatternistThis is the one I wanted to add
10-05 14:51PatternistI have to revive this position since having it at N16 hinders me from putting more variations in saying it breaks the rule of symmetry or sth.
10-05 14:47Patternistthis is the joseki and this is the timing. gfoot/single white stone is considered lightly. It may very well be a help for ladders and etc.
10-05 14:32I will have to erase that description('black will gain too much profit') This is still being played very frequently in pro games.
10-05 12:44Perhaps a continuation and further development could be put into Joseki punishment. Showing what good moves can be played off an opponents mistake. Although this is still a great way to learn and I complement those who took the time to make this! :)
10-03 05:21Source?
10-03 05:12Why S13 for white?
10-03 02:53locally, this is good for black.
10-02 09:46is really 1 good? create a empty triangle and don't destroy complete the aji in r17.I think is better p15.is just the opinion of a 1k player.
10-01 12:06If this is marked as slightly good for black, why are the moves on both sides marked as ideal? Is this normal?
10-01 12:05If this is good for black, why are the moves marked as ideal on both sides?
09-27 14:20syshapeI'm not sure if Black shouldn't better play here.
09-25 15:38PatternistThis is used in very special settings in some pro games. Assumption would be that 1. If it's hard for W to play [R16]. 2. If W is already thick on the outside and B wants to take corner fully for some reason. Generally, this is a bad play since simply playing 1 result in superior result for W.
09-24 11:50Continuation?
09-23 23:26PatternistL17 is outdated and no longer being played by professionals. Still can be played by amateurs to avoid great complication.
09-23 22:09PatternistOne of the cases that encyclopedia is wrong completely. This is good for W.
09-23 22:06PatternistW won't play like this.
09-23 22:05PatternistIt could be played if W desires to play lightly. He just needs to endure the loss of profit.
09-23 10:35It is outdated in certain openings. It's still widely used in many situations.
09-22 17:27PatternistI will add details later that shows why this is somewhat of an overplay.
09-22 15:32PatternistThat's becuase that database is outdated. In 2013, you can't expect B to play S15 or S18. If B goes there, W is slightly better.
09-21 16:52I mad few changes.
09-20 21:41PatternistWhat happens if W cuts when he has favorable ladder(a couple ladder matters)is pretty damn complicated and there are still different variations popping up every few days. Hopefully I get to study it and figure it out.
09-20 20:17PatternistI'm not sure what's the best sequence after this. I will study it and post it. If somebody knows about this move, plz give me some help.
09-20 13:16PatternistI'm sorry for deleting one of your description. But Kim Sung Ryong 9p said that this is over play fro B unless it's being played under special settings. Two weak B stones are way too close to white cluster that's way too strong to attack. Furthermore, if W blocks R14, profit in the corner is actually nothing much.
09-20 08:50PatternistTo be honest, this should be marked as a bad move. It pretty much made W's move at L17 an ideal move from bad move.
09-20 08:49PatternistI changed 1 as a good move from Ideal move. Playing 1 is good in terms of the centre influence. However, J17 becomes no longer a sente for B. If 1 is the ideal sequence than W's move at L17 should also be an ideal move-since it can be beneficial to take M 15 as a sente instead of J17.
09-20 00:29PatternistNowdays, pros concluded that the whole sequence after this is good for W.-Yun Seunghyun 8D pro-
09-20 00:07PatternistI changed it to ideal. According to Yun Seunghyun 8p, this is good play from W. I will make few changes in reference to him since there are modified theories from current pros.
09-19 23:22helloI'm japanese.
09-19 23:00PatternistLook at path:pdqfqepfncqjqhphrfrgreqg
09-19 22:58PatternistWhat you guys are talking about is very old wisdom. This is frequently played by pros in other situations. I believe Lee Changho first came up with such theory. Nowdays, this is often played when B has a stone at R6(result of an keima answer to keima kakari).
09-16 05:09Continuation?
09-15 13:17What if A is not urgent, instead of P18 Q18 for white?
09-15 08:16I saw that in a high dan european match, was it really such a early mistake from white, or is there maybe new variations out that Q7 isn't bad? White next played P6. Both players 5d with more than a hour time. Though white really looked bad with two weakish groups..
09-14 16:58Doesn't lead to ko?
09-13 12:19What if black doesn't have the upper left, is 3 better than 2 in this case?
09-13 09:42Why does this still say that it requires a favorable ladder, if Q18 doesn't? I see that other variations do, but shouldn't it say this later then?
09-12 15:23Continuation after white R17?
09-12 15:16If this is slightly good for black, why mark R18 as ideal move?
09-11 16:44It is the weakness of the star point
09-11 16:10Continuation?
09-11 11:58I think that without the ladder R17 is wrong inthe fisrt place
09-11 08:27Why is this marked necessary, if the other white moves also are marked as ideal? So it isn't necessary at all?
09-11 08:16What josekis are options if black has an small knight enclosure (D17 & C15)? I feel like R17 isn't ideal because attacking M17 doesn't yield much profit. The same as the jumping out with P14. Would Q12 be a better option?
09-11 08:13What move for white, to attack M17?
09-11 08:09is this still a viable choice if black has a small knight enclosure in the upper left corner? Because if you attack M17 after black let white get a group with strong shape, it feels like white can't really profit from attacking M17?
09-08 22:34PatternistThere's a big difference here. This is actually more frequently played nowdays. Its related to ko threats thats going to be a key to sequences following.
09-08 21:41PatternistI corrected it to an ideal.
09-08 16:21Why is N14 important? Could black not just pincer whites Q13 stones, or would that enable white to use the aji with the stone at O16 to strengthen his stones to attack the black pincer stone?
09-08 15:08What is the next move?
09-07 07:56RustleWindI am not very strong, but in recent pro games, I have seen this approach very often, more often then F3 or N4, so I changed it back to "Ideal Move". I couldn't find any commented games on this, except http://gogameguru.com/go-commentary-iyama-yuta-vs-takao-shinji-68th-honinbo-game-7/where it states that O17 nowadays is more popular than N4.
09-07 04:35Why is this marked as bad move, if the refutation shows that black gets good profit if white tries R15?
09-07 04:32Why is Q17 marked as a bad move?
09-02 16:13Why?
09-01 17:34http://badukmovies.com/episodes/fools-follow-rules
08-31 23:45Is Good?
08-29 15:31??
08-28 05:17???
08-26 07:07I don't see how 2 is a trick move, it just seems to be flat-out wrong (i.e. red, not yellow).
08-24 06:24Gives white thickness. Good if white has Q4
08-24 06:20Reassigned it as Ideal move. I cannot see how white can get profit from that situation
08-22 01:03As when black plays S18, white should probably tenuki. Black's best follow up is to enclose the corner I suppose, in which case the S17 stone is ill-placed.
08-22 01:00I'm deleting the sequence that follows this move since it doesn't seem reasonable at all.
08-19 05:31What does white play?
08-13 14:02Moonglowhow white have to play?
08-13 11:58MoonglowSorry if I missed something
08-13 11:43Moonglowcan black group run on center?on all my variants it can`t be killed.
08-12 18:29This is awesome! Thanks to all who took part in it's creation.
08-11 12:58This is modern pattern.
08-11 11:22It's a slack since white didn't exchange moves on the corner first. White have many easy choices.
08-11 11:19Very possible move fromn black. Since white exchanged the moves on the corner first, this move isn't a slack.
08-09 17:17postion isn't really even. This is good for white
08-09 16:46I had to correct all this. Plz if your unsure of the moves don't make a change
08-09 15:48This is the most solid move black can make. Seen in many recent pro matches in specific opening.
08-09 11:36played for a while by Lee Chang Ho
08-09 10:47this is better for white. easy. black's strenghten white and black end up getting bad shape. There are nagging aji.
08-09 10:44Cho U used to love this pincer. However, nowadays its hardly seen since this final conclusion favours white. White takes both sides so black's thickness isn't so useful
08-09 10:21Nowadays this is considered to be better for white
08-08 14:20I have to disagree completely with the description. What the description says is old wisdom. Ask current pros or strong amateur players.
08-08 13:57I'd say this is the only correct move. In recent pro matches this is said to be the only move played
08-08 12:33This is not even close to the diagram you put on. Black gained significant advantage compare to your diagram.
08-06 14:52????
08-02 07:43Could someone please explain, how this requires a ladder? (Currently the variants stop after 2 more moves)
08-01 16:34Öldürür.
08-01 10:54white good
07-31 15:07ME TOO
07-29 16:05高尾さんの変化が複数の間違いとな
07-29 06:51xuanjiSince white had made a mistake by playing q17, shouldn't we be able to punish him?
07-19 11:41GillisYes it is bad for that reason. Not only does it help the corner but locally white must think about reinforcing this white stone as well. However, if the top was very developed and strong for white already and white can get no real favorable exchange frm approaching then white could turn and push black in that direction with a move such as this. Even if black gets to enclose its not like the corner is invulnerable. Even if black would kosumi shimari there are still ways to attack. Just check the local shimari josekis on josekipedia and see for yourself. Anyhow, locally this move is a mistake.
07-19 11:30GillisI also feel the same but its not like you have to tenuki. You can still lean on white with o17 which is almost like sente because o18 block is very huge. Perhsps q14 is a choice but it feels rather submissive.
07-19 11:21GillisI don't think a jump from pincer will ever be outdated. There are some times when you are in a good position to atrack, then of course you should split black in two. Though, locally speaking I can't say much since I got no source but black is probably favorable since he gets to strengthen the 4-4 corner which is rather bad at protecting to begin with. Of course, if white invades now it just gives black the influence she wanted to attack. So normally after black reinforce, white locally speaking has no real good move other than playing the shoulder hit which also depends on a ladder the runs into the sides (thankfully not the corners). Even if white is favorable with ladder black can still force white into poor shape and then turn to make some third line territory in exchange for some "influence" that still requires some sort of continuation after black settles with a jump. However, professionals still plays this variation today, although a bit rare. Often at the lower professional level (1-5p). Even at earlier stages of the games and also when they are looking to balance territory and influence. In modern variations though, professionals seem to treat the shape and outside lightly and takes the opportunity to take the corner after black settles her outside stone. Of course, professionals have come up with counters such as kicking first to protect corner slightly and other probes/tesujis. Practically speaking, this joseki is still developing so I don't think it can be called outdated.
07-18 18:27Q17 instead of R13 is joseki for W
07-16 17:17Deer123fffewf
07-16 17:17Deer123GGG
07-14 23:54GillisProbably labeled as a mistake because black can kakari at the 3rd line, letting white have a difficult time making a base. Or if white already had a big base on the lower right black can just kakari to threaten to slide in under, ruining whites territory while protecting her own corner. And if white defends with kick or nobi black naturally reinforces and the corner is strong. The exchange is bad for white. Naturally, the 3rd line play here is better though I am skeptical that this is labeled as a mistake. It could be good sometimes but hard to come up with an example.
07-09 22:29White is better
07-02 03:54glimzIs this really an Ideal move? Any pro games with it?
06-30 08:18GillisWhat source is this from?
06-28 11:27poo
06-28 08:43con nua
06-25 06:11I heard that this move is outdated? What is true?
06-25 04:10In which occasion would white play this? And how to follow up?
06-16 12:30But isn't that better for white, Blacks shape really looks fugly, especially with R14
06-15 05:47What if Black hasn't a chinese? Is it bad than because it lets black enclose? Or does it depend on the right side?
06-15 04:08?
06-14 08:09??
06-06 08:20w looks quite flexible here, after b has spent R15. For example, w pass, b Q17, w can consider q18. I think running into center, living in corner, and taking sente, are all possible.
06-04 15:59SampiAnd the continuation, Li Jian?
05-24 10:57b can cut, so w would normally play some move (r15,r18,r13,s13, maybe q14)
05-22 12:54is the position settled or should white normally play R15?
05-22 01:34kohmabDoes black Q13 mistake ?
05-12 09:38lander commenter assdfklj lkby asdjlfk hkjahef
05-11 11:07oui ?
05-04 05:31Landeri like this page
05-04 05:27Landerw not good
04-18 06:12"Schwarz hat schlechte Form" ist nicht "Weiß hat schlechte Form" gemeint?
04-16 06:45"Schwarz ist überkonzentriert"? Es sollte doch gut für schwarz sein?
04-15 11:51Arnaud99See Dinerstein book called "New moves".Page 103 talks about this position.Connection for white seems to be the best answer
04-12 08:32How is this good for black? Can someone make a continuation please?
04-10 18:16I think you do m17
04-06 18:52阅 13/4/6——军一
04-06 03:48777I think this is good move.
04-03 09:52Why finish here ?Tired ?
04-03 09:51i ike poney
03-24 03:02Which is better 1 or 2
03-20 12:54Why is this move necessary? How could white punish if black does not make this move?What if black extends to 1 instead of this move?
03-19 04:06777Why this is wrong?
03-08 18:32Reassigning as "question". You can't just say something is a "bad move" without explaining why.
03-08 18:18If this has no refutation shown, and no commentary, this should not be listed as a bad move.
03-08 16:29me too
03-08 16:28Compliments to all people who helped build and maintain this site: absolutely splendid.
03-07 21:03Sighris- or make that R-13 since column "R" is the 3rd column; so R-14 would be slow/small?
03-07 20:59SighrisI agree with Amon, where is "11"? Same with mentioning White can pincher at 11... is that R-14?
03-02 04:41why is it bad?
02-28 04:00White is supposed to connect but that doesn't seem easy without further support. Any idea ?
02-22 10:26elsjaakoExpanded on at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BxToud-Wek&feature=player_detailpage#t=41m
02-13 18:56Gote move,but big influence...
02-13 18:56Gote move,but big influence...
02-13 05:17このときの黒の間違いのとがめ方をお願いします。
02-06 17:04In what game was this used ?
01-27 16:47How is this a good move?
01-26 20:31can someone explain if this is a good move? White can't seem to find a good continuation after black extends downwards.
01-16 13:36Could someone comment on the tradeoffs between S16 and T16?
01-15 08:37Should white just connect here at R15?
01-06 14:25What to dohere as black?
01-06 13:16This has been said to be the wrong move for white by Guo Juan on January 6, 2013.
01-03 09:57Fizmo: This might be the counter for the black p18 but more discussion is required, please contribute
12-30 18:59All subsequent variations are marked as good for white, how can this be a bad move?
12-30 09:38reverts to other sequence
12-27 18:32Doesn't this lead to the "normal" small nadare?
12-14 13:36Not at all. I dont see why this is trick move
12-14 13:35Is it really a trick move? I play it sometimes because I saw ancient chinese variations
11-27 04:15what's white next move ?
11-24 21:02it seems like that could work... it does not seem particularly great for either player...
11-24 20:52i also like r8...
11-24 20:51this is very confusing for me. If i was white, i would most likely respond with r4...
11-23 00:28GillisThis got played against me in a recent game where my opponent played the Kobayashi fuseki. A bit weird to pincer in that fuseki but whatever I decided to play R17 and worked out very similar to one space pincer joseki. Came here to see some variations but none are added. Anyone know any source I can check out for info on this type of play? Otherwise I'd appreciate if someone could throw down some moves.
11-23 00:24GillisGood for white?
11-17 14:04Common start of many variations!
11-17 10:11pretty :)
11-11 00:54How does White win here?jesusin, 2d EGF
11-05 04:17紅月輪Q14のケイマの突き出しを打っているので黒有利では?(Q14とP14を取り除けば特殊型とはいえ定石)
11-03 12:28fuck
11-03 11:55SagatCan you add a source please?
10-27 23:05紅月輪シチョウ黒良しなら白ツブレでは
10-26 15:22If b played chinese opening, then b has a stone at L17 so w is not gonna get good moyo.
10-18 05:09紅月輪白サガリなら黒ツギ白ハネツギの後ハサミツケなら黒サガって抵抗する手が成立しませんか
10-16 20:08紅月輪外を切られて白大丈夫なんですか
10-16 20:01こっちを切ったら黒二子を捨てるのですか
10-14 05:12BadduckSchwarz ist überkonzentriert und steht gleichzeitig gut?
10-13 12:02hi
10-12 19:54This site is fantastic! It's been so hard for me to remember all the sequences of joseki in my head moving from one graphic to the next, then reading all the comments! Thank you thank you!!
10-12 19:53hello :)
10-08 08:35unkoGet it. I got to study.
09-19 09:28White can't extend like in the P16 joseki because M16 black stone
09-19 09:20What if white passes here, what is the continuation of the trick?
09-16 21:25Hi
09-12 21:12palanqSeems like a solid move, but maybe too gote. Then again, black doesn't need to respond to the other local moves, either...
09-12 20:49GillisAre there any special follow ups by black?
09-08 09:14GillisPlaying hane under directly here kinda puts black in gote, and the variation ends in white not being isolated at all. I could imagine that this variation would be good if white is already strong at top and black got something like Q12 already, otherwise this simply just feels bad. Perhaps P17 would work as a better follow-up or is there anything more severe?
09-06 05:23GillisWhite over-concentrated?
09-04 06:27What is this? Why post a whole game...
09-03 13:16Why is this bad for white?
09-01 10:03poop
09-01 09:20poop
08-25 11:57hi
08-15 12:28есть
08-12 20:29it's hard to say without pro experience that the blue spots are not useful in some way. (btw, shijima- stating an opinion without giving a reason is a good way to discredit yourself. accusing something of being stupid on top of that makes you look like a jackass.)
08-04 23:40And then?
08-02 09:52that's it?
08-01 12:42(i am the one that posted this) i think s16 is a small mistake what would you say about it? possible continuations?
07-23 12:09a translation would be nice since even with google translate i do not understand a word
07-23 10:18Maybe u am reading that wrong but this probably leads to a ko.. thats why it was not played
07-22 09:08too long, better R14
07-21 03:04Isn'it the point just above B instead of B ?
07-16 08:14Thank you for this site! It has helped me a lot.
07-09 07:51wtf?
07-07 12:26the point is white has sente to defend 1 side so white only has to worry about the other side being attacked. Blacks corner is small and is actually only 1 eye. This means black only has 10 points in the corner and is 1 eye and running to the center. While black runs white will gain on both sides and get more than 10 points.
07-07 11:28Most of the time this move is bad for black. It is only played in special cases. In most cases when players think this move is good, playing p15 or p14 are better choices.
07-07 07:54s84uaтоже попалось
06-25 11:43Made a correction on this variation. It does not lead to life as the previous person mentioned. I've been experimenting a bit on the tsumego so please do correct me if S18 does not kill. What I am sure of though is that S15 leads to KO.// Gillis 5k
06-24 07:31this is wrong, w should play s13 instead of s15
06-22 11:20Pour répondre à la question, on retrouve la meme variation avec blanc 14 joué avant blanc 10.
06-21 10:57Pour répondre à la quéstion: Il faut comparer la forme de cette séquence à la séquence 1.Le mouvement de blanc n'est pas optimal ici.
06-20 11:50White 10 is a mistake, as Black gets powerful thickness.
06-10 23:18r9 doesn't affect the ladder
06-07 12:02BrilliantNo professional has ever played this move, according to GoGod.
06-03 02:00It`s not a mistake!!!
05-31 07:05This is a strange move to me, since it makes an empty triangle shape. My first impression was, "Isn't P16 is just better?"However, to answer my own question, I think it's important to take away R16 from white and pressure the S16 stone?
05-09 02:48justeWhy is this position labeled as "white is sealed in"?
05-08 09:34GillisI really can't see why this is bad. It actually splits up tengen for both sides. Surely it should not be played early in the game and white should have a plan on how to put his stones according to this move.
05-07 10:14I am only 1d but I completely agree, there is no point in drawing back instead of moving out to split after the pincer.
05-04 08:35this doesn't look THAT bad for B right?
04-30 12:53in part I was just playing this one on d5
04-30 12:49comment répondre
04-29 15:10есть
04-23 19:53How can black hope to fight here?
04-23 11:11why no 15 n
04-19 00:50dkillerI reloved the require a fovavrable ladder at that inconditionnaly kill
04-17 05:54How is the continuation here?
04-16 05:12astroJRNot a trick play ! This move can actually be a good choice.
04-09 09:59How is the contination here for W? W's group seems weak...
04-07 18:53DarkSyctheIf the sequence ends with an "equal" result, how is this a mistake?
04-06 08:58Can somebody say what is the goal for this aproach ?
03-26 13:29Chinese High Opening
03-26 00:21Two eye's signature trick move
03-14 09:23тут есьб кто небудь?
03-09 13:29It does leave more aji, but black might play S17, S18, S16 now. After that black O17 or P18 are both possible, so white will probably want to defend at N17. Also, once black has a stone at S16, black Q14 and S14 are both possible, so if white wants to move R14 out while also cutting black, it has to be a very slow move and black won't have a problem fighting.
03-09 13:09frodwithThis just came up in a game of mine. What are the downsides of this move for white? It seems to leave more aji in the R14 stone than the joseki.
03-09 08:08Around 1d here. I don't think Black can be happy with this, since his original O14 stone came to nothing at all - the sequence could have been played the same without it and it does not contribute anything.
03-07 05:48But with k17 black m17 seems too good. What do you think?
03-06 09:05r17 is the move labeled bad.
03-06 05:42If this is a good move, how can White possible trick Black? You have a trick play marked, but no "bad" move or "questionable" response?
02-28 13:342-2 is the killing blow to the 3-3 invasion if black has solid thickness on both sides. White can make only one eye in the corner, the other one must form on the run.
02-28 08:27siowya sequence for white here would be good
02-27 22:49libertigood stuff for studing joseki
02-27 22:38libertithis is an ancient Chinese play as "leeaning-cap" joseki
02-27 22:32libertithis is old Chinese play as "double flying swallow"
02-27 22:27libertinot actually bad
02-27 22:18libertiwhy wrong?
02-27 22:14ok
02-26 01:28What now?
02-21 05:31Apparently the Magic Sword is not used really anymore, http://senseis.xmp.net/?WhenToUseTheMagicSword
02-08 18:25adumLiJian is a professional go player from China. I'm not sure why she labeled this move as not joseki.
02-08 14:33SampiWho is this LiJian guy? I'm tired of him adding himself as a source. This move is the Magic Sword of Muramasa, its been played professionally. Why is it wrong? When did it stop being considered joseki? Is there an official refutation by a professional?
02-06 07:00if b runs out then w can squeeze starting at N13. Also maybe ladder block at F4.
02-06 00:27PodcrazyIf it says in the View box that white can tenuki, why is it labeled as bad?
02-06 00:24I am still weak, but as the ladder doesn't work, how does this help?
02-01 07:32so theres only 18 people on this site
01-31 05:20S17 before O14 is answered simply with O16. Very good result for Black.
01-30 15:24What the hell is this move doing here? Plz get rid of it!
01-30 03:51すごい手ですね。私も打ってみようかしら
01-12 20:03SampiS19 and S13 are not miai. If black plays S13 white dies.However, professionals have been known to live and create ko in this corner as white with different sequences.
01-09 06:24Perhaps the question you should be asking is in what sense is this possibly good for white?
01-08 08:30Funny variation :D
01-06 16:23I am wondering about this move too
01-05 08:20why is that bad for white?
01-05 07:30i would hane p17, for me its best for black
01-03 07:18Is M15 good for Black?
01-03 06:13Takemiya also played this one
01-02 15:35Yoda Norimoto has recently used this move in one of his games and It worked out okay for him. I don't think it can be called bad.
12-27 15:39is ko really a settled position?
12-27 13:33Depends heavily on what is in the corner closest to this move.
12-19 12:34I think you would kick the p17 stone and make white overconcentrated.
12-18 17:26BrilliantGo Seigen recently commented that this was a bad move by black. However, it has been speculated that this is simply an attempt by Go to raise awareness in the Go community of other opening styles. In fact, Go was the first person ever to play this fuseki as black, and it remains reasonably common amongst professionals.
12-18 17:22BrilliantI have marked a couple of sequences following from a black pass. They are not necessarily joseki, but they are examples of the kind of thing that can go wrong for black if he passes.
12-18 12:37could anyone explain why it's considered bad move?
12-18 07:44What if black ignores this joseki and plays elsewhere?
12-17 20:58I cleaned up. I think it's good to let people know that M11 local move exists, and that L10 response is generally not good (I have seen kyus play it occasionally, often with one of the deleted "followup moves" from here ending in not-a-natural-tenuki).Whole fuseki from single pro games from the 1930s are interesting, but not desirable here.
12-17 20:56I cleaned up. I think it's good to let people know that M11 local move exists, and that L10 response is generally not good (I have seen kyus play it occasionally, often with one of the deleted "followup moves" from here ending in not-a-natural-tenuki).Whole fuseki from single pro games from the 1930s are interesting, but not desirable here.
12-17 05:57a strong taiwanese player at our club says that this result is better for black because later on in the game the aji at s14 can come into play
12-16 00:09sinse33If is good for white, why R17 is not the best move and just a good move ?
12-16 00:03sinse33What is the best move for white after black play [p14]
12-05 15:31Why is it good for white if there is a move labelled as 'mistake' for white?
12-04 05:14anyone knows a continuation here?
12-02 08:07How is the continuation here? Where should W play?
11-22 18:19BrilliantIn what sense is it incorrect? If you read the comments earlier in the sequence, you will see that it is labelled as a way to refute mirror Go. In that sense it is an entirely legitimate sequence.
11-20 04:05Could someone correct or remove this sequence please?
11-17 18:15I am questioning this as being superior to another extension due to the sequence I have entered following it.
11-10 10:24dkillerIn fact the black stone don't negate white wall and there is still some aji starting with R13 if I don't mistake
11-06 00:18This is much better for White than the joseki. White can yet improve by avoiding the P8-Q18 exchange.I hope that helps.
11-04 07:49DarkSyctheProbably this is slightly better for Black than after white pushes once then jumps
11-03 16:14Played when black has supporting stones that can trap/kill white group when it escapes towards middle.
10-30 18:17If R15 is bad, what is a good move for B? If there is no good continuation, why is S17 marked as ideal?
10-22 23:46This black move is described as incorrect in Yilun Yang's 'Tricks in Joseki'
10-19 21:49blargyity blargitiy blarg
10-16 08:22This seems to be the among the most popular moves with professionals in this situation, so I feel it is only fair to call it ideal rather than good.
10-13 04:24leitet in anderes Joseki über, das entsteht, wenn S direkt auf p16 mit p15 anlegt. Daher kann q15 nicht als schwach angesehen werden.
10-06 18:39JoeSekiThis is the right move, black has to protect O15 or he loses all those stones
10-03 07:47чем этот ход плох???
10-02 13:27BrilliantIf something leads to complicated variations, is it necessarily a trick move just by grace of its complicated nature?
09-30 09:09BrilliantI have put some ideal continuations after this move based on games from my professional database, but the database has 017 occur 95 times in total, so none of the variations have a huge body of work to back them up.
09-26 17:07BrilliantThis move does not appear to achieve anything at all.
09-22 15:14BrilliantI don't understand your comment. If white plays k16, black still has sente. Q18 is far and away the most common move here among professionals.
09-20 19:40sinse33This move is the correct answer, but [q18] for white is bad, because black keep sentewhite need to play near [k16]
09-19 15:00The historical proverb is not that "a diagonal move is never bad". Shusaku said that THIS diagonal move will never be bad no matter how far in the future. Another, different, proverb says that the one-space jump is never bad. All these have to be taken with a grain of salt since whether they are good or not depends on the surrounding position.
09-15 16:56BrilliantI am calling this good since, despite being the standard response for punishing this mistake when you first learn it, it is never the response played by strong players. Indeed, it feels almost like a trick move.
09-13 06:41BrilliantWhite is dead ;)
09-11 20:31SampiBlack takes the corner? what??
09-07 10:30omgn00b_kgsI've played as black that way, with K16 and D16 (san rei sen)Is this good?
09-04 13:14BrilliantThis is clearly inferior for white.
09-03 06:48How should you approach this then?
09-01 09:18How can thispossibly be good for white?
09-01 08:48This move is fine when the top side is most important and white needs to invade.
09-01 06:43This move just means that black captures one more stone and finishes in better shape than the normal variation. Since it offers no improvement for these things, it cannot possibly be good.
08-31 18:00Did someone say Aji Keshi?
08-31 12:57My database has a winning percentage for this move when it is played by black and a losing percentage when it is played by white, out of 80 and 40 games respectively. Both times the results are close to 50%, though, which makes me feel that it is at least a good move.
08-29 14:45SampiWhy is this a bad move if it has been played professionally?
08-27 17:48This move has a losing record in my database, but (obviously) has pro examples. Changed to good pending a source on 'bad'.
08-27 17:33*Tengen* has been played professionally and I think can be happily considered a shinfuseki move. However, some of the lines marked "ideal" should be "bad" and the "normal" (tried by professionals) "center approach" is missing (I will add it now).My cause for concern is that I've seen (weaker) players trying ""openings" on KGS I believe they have "got" from here.
08-27 17:23Unless some high level examples or commentary are cited explaining this, I think we should change this line to "bad" or remove it (meaning no disrespect; it appears to be unplayed and defies normal opening theory).
08-24 18:37I am going to be brutally honest and speculate that actually, I am not convinced this sequence is Joseki at all.
08-21 15:02Phillip Priddyor you can try goshrine to compete against other go players
08-21 12:31BrilliantThis (or a number of other sequences) are playable for white as a continuation, but are not really joseki any more.
08-20 13:58BrilliantWhilst not common, this move is played regularly in professional games, even when neither player has any supporting stones.
08-19 12:11BrilliantIn what sense is this a good move?
08-14 09:52DarkSyctheWhy is this a mistake?
08-14 01:35Best response?
08-14 01:35From a professional game. What are the ideas behind this move?
08-13 13:13BrilliantAccording to my GoGoD disc, there is no instance in which any professional has approached the 5-5 this way. This position only occurs when p15 is played as a ladder breaker.
08-12 14:50SampiI've marked this move as ideal because... why wouldnt it be? It's been played professionally.
08-09 07:44Not, nessecarily bad. In KJD, black gives secure 4th line terretory.
08-05 18:00BrilliantAt the end of all the sequences that have been listed here, I can't help but feel that o14 looks misplaced - in some situations the position would actually make more sense were it not there at all.
08-05 17:53BrilliantIf you are still looking for professional game joseki, Eidogo has a decent selection of professional games and a corner pattern search facility.
08-05 17:51BrilliantThis the (a?) normal result when black plays 3 from a 4-4 point, but now it seems too good for him since w can't invade effectivley any more.
08-05 17:42I have not been able to find a good continuation for white after this move by black.
08-05 13:07DarkSyctheSan-san is not a trick move. I have no idea who would ever label it as such.
08-01 09:12Can someone add more information about this ?
07-25 15:06SampiThis makes no sense...
07-25 12:08xiumaI think it is not good, baxauce Black plays San San und White leaves weakness, so hi should play one more, but there is no move which is a good continuatio.
07-24 12:35I am quite new to Go, but I do not understand why this is a mistake. It would seem to expand white's ability to gain territory on the right and is not easy to cute in isolation.
07-21 05:018p played played this against me in a 4 stone handicap game.
07-14 17:48adumseems to be a new pattern from Lee Sedol: http://gogameguru.com/commentary-xie-he-lee-sedol-8th-chunlan-cup/
07-14 14:57DarkSyctheChanged to mistake because of 1.
07-05 13:10hola
06-29 18:14DarkSyctheWhy is this a mistake and R10 not?
06-28 19:38sinse33This sequence is correct ?S19 and S13 seems miai
06-28 15:09DarkSyctheChanged to good because all of the sequences after White 2 are at least slightly good for White
06-26 19:42This is the way out.
06-26 06:25yo
06-25 19:03Josekipedia.com is correct! Ding,ding, ding!
06-25 19:01This is good for white.Black seems low on the 3rd line and 2nd line.
06-24 10:59DarkSycthechanged to mistake because the only sequence provided is good for Black.
06-21 18:57DarkSyctheThis has been played by professionals so I don't know if you can really call this a mistake.
06-20 16:59Pariah.Priest@DarkSycthe - I get where you're coming from, but I'm looking for specific situations. Not just opening moves. Perhaps even some old game records of Professional Go Players.
06-20 11:52DarkSyctheThis move is very slow, so maybe a simple jump such as R14 could be a good response.
06-18 17:45DarkSyctheCan this be playable for Black? Black has less points than White!
06-16 18:21DarkSycthePariah Priest - this site :)
06-16 16:45Pariah.PriestDoes anybody have a good site where I can get some joseki for free?
06-10 09:55Das fernbleiben von Schwarz nach Q3 finde ich fraglich. Schwarz profitiert meiner Meinung nach nicht ausreichend von dem zusätzlichen Zug unten rechts, um den Cut O4 auszugleichen. Zudem konnte Weiß auch noch mit C11 die Ausdehnung verhindern.
06-07 15:25this was a mistake, move shouldn't be deleted
06-05 09:30According to my database this isn't a mistake, it's the most common continuation.
05-31 17:09i dont know, if these are really "ideal moves", but maybe these are ideal for this kind of strategy. the corners were not clear w's territory, but open for attac. black gains influence over the center. but personally i wouldnt play this as black, too ;-)
05-30 18:29sinse33Good if black have a stone on d16 ?
05-26 10:06DarkSyctheNot sure if this is joseki or not but I think this works for Black.
05-25 16:23DarkSycthep17, sorry
05-21 17:55after a sequence like this, W would like to move T16 to S17
05-20 14:14まいどー(^笑^)/白後手になるのでノビが良い。
05-20 14:13まいどー(^笑^)/白味悪そうな気がします(ー。ー;)
05-20 14:10まいどー(^笑^)/一着ある方が手厚い。
05-20 14:09まいどー(^笑^)/シチョウで取らなくてもいいかも(=´▽`)ゞ
05-20 14:05まいどー(^笑^)/黒は隅を生かして外勢を得ます。
05-20 14:01まいどー(^笑^)/一段落。右辺展開の足がかりを用意してまずまず。
05-20 14:00まいどー(^笑^)/ハネると右辺展開か隅の生きが見合い
05-20 13:51まいどー(^笑^)/よくある展開です。
05-20 11:43DarkSyctheI think the idea is that if White doesn't respond Black can start attacking the stones. Otherwise, White can easily make eyes by capturing that stone.
05-04 23:10VoseI have seen this in pro games so I would say it is Ideal?
05-04 23:10I have seen this in pro games so I would say it is Ideal?
05-03 04:40jokepHow is the continuation here? Is this move really correct?
05-02 01:18jokepHow is the continuation here?
05-01 11:21good for white ????????
04-30 13:42erinnert das nicht an eine variation eines 3-3 joseki nur umgedreht und mit p17 und o14 ?
04-30 02:12White played approach move and he got sente. It's ok.
04-26 08:58Shijimawhy is it all blue? stupid!!!
04-24 16:32tailswQ19 bS19 wT19 bO19.
04-24 06:10VoseHow can W answer this and get benefit?
04-24 06:10How can W answer this and get benefit?
04-23 15:57DarkSyctheBlack should cut at 1 anyway before trying the trick play on the side here.
04-23 15:57DarkSyctheThis doesn't allow the ladder to work., so I don't see how it is a trick play.
04-23 15:56DarkSyctheThis should be the branch for the trick play.
04-21 19:32I don't have a source, but I believe this clamp is considered too early unless W has a stone at R12 or so. I was told by a 7dan that W should extend on the top first.
04-20 00:04AmonMISTAKE "for black, against the approach he can adopt solid measures such as 3, 6, and 11," [= The Number > 11
04-19 15:15DarkSyctheso Black must have this ladder, right?
04-05 22:08pfff, qui a mis des sequences idiotes comme ça...comment ça peut être joseki ça!
04-05 22:04^^ c'est pas du tout un mauvais coup !! ne dites pas ce que vous ne savez pas (voir cours de guo juan, ou parties de lee changh ho ;)
04-04 20:25sinse33seems a better respopnse for white
04-03 01:49VoseI think that it is great to have fuseki as part of this dictionary. It is good to have and talk about all broad elements of opening patterns. This could be the best place to do that.
04-03 01:49I think that it is great to have fuseki as part of this dictionary. It is good to have and talk about all broad elements of opening patterns. This could be the best place to do that.
04-03 01:29VoseIt seems to me that white gets too much from this? What do you think? Also black seems to not be settled yet so by the time black settles white has gotten the profit. Black may tenuki but I am not sure. (Do I post this here or in the view section?)
04-03 01:29It seems to me that white gets too much from this? What do you think? Also black seems to not be settled yet so by the time black settles white has gotten the profit. Black may tenuki but I am not sure. (Do I post this here or in the view section?)
03-31 07:04mafutrctYSY 8p: bad move, gives white chances
03-25 21:56by me on now
03-22 17:49sinse33seems a bad move because white can play P19
03-17 07:04what if black q17 stead o16? less complicated it seems? then w o16, b r14
03-13 03:46GelyaYeah, an interesting move. My opponent tried it on me. I think black must have the ladder to play this way.
03-11 23:58Is this good for White? Later on White can destroy the corner territory easily.
03-09 13:15After White extends to S17, Black is in trouble. If Black extends to s16, White can cut at P16. If Black connects at P16, White can connect with the single stone at R14.
03-08 22:37why is it a mistake?
03-06 14:45why are black's moves are ideal move?after this variation,w got 4 cornors and b got.... nothing solid
03-05 06:23Including the option of pincering i.e. one should pincer an approach to a 4-4 stone 5% of the time or less?
03-03 23:31sinse33What is the good answer about this move ?
03-03 14:44Seems a lot to give away for third line base making. R13 and R10 not better a line higher?
02-27 06:25takmakприемлемый ход в этой позиции?
02-27 06:24takmakкак чёрным отвечать на этот ход?
02-27 05:21互角
02-24 09:33adumL17 is too close to white's wall
02-24 04:26Isn't L17 instead of K17 ?
02-23 12:32blue88No source, no tags, no description for the path. So I changed this move to question type for now.
02-22 17:25Now what?
02-22 17:18now what?
02-18 09:28Василийя играл так, за черных играть трудно но и выгода есть, хотя играть надо хорошо...
02-18 08:09blue88The Ko still looks like a flower ko for Black and White can't avoid it without becoming a shapeless dumpling?
02-18 08:08adumi have referenced a source calling this joseki. if you want to change it, please provide a source.
02-13 04:38blue88Looks pretty good for Black as well.
02-13 04:37blue88Maybe this is a nice Choice for Black? So far I couldn't find a good way for White, but I didn't really go through the cross-cut variations. ;)
02-13 04:36blue88This looks too good for Black imho.
02-13 04:21blue88It's difficult to find study material on this Fuseki. Looking for responses to White [d16] I only found this sequence played by Kanno Kiyonori 5p vs. Shirae Haruhiko, 5p in an Oteai.
02-12 04:52blue88In my game i played this Hane directly, but it's a bad choice because Black can fix his defects now.
02-12 04:40blue88What happens if Black extends his side?
02-12 04:38blue88After the cut I found two possible respones r17 and o16.
02-11 23:55blue88Compare to Ryu Shikun vs. Cho Chikun. 58th Honinbo League 2002-11-25.
02-10 15:25Is this really a reasonable opening move, with no other stones on the board?
02-07 06:40blue88To me it seems like pushing at [q16] first was better, because now Black has the choice of erasing the outside aji by playing [q16] himself.
02-06 12:09look at go seigen game versus kitani minoru, kitani played like this one
02-06 04:21blue88Compare to Gu Lingyi 5p vs Zhang Wei 6p: 22nd Chinese CCTV Cup, round 4: 2010-04-09.
02-06 04:20blue88Compare to Qiu Jun vs. Huang Yizhong: 12th NEC Cup semifinal 2006-11-04.
02-04 19:10Isn't white very weak now?
02-04 19:08Why is this trick play? Black does not have a very good position
02-04 03:29breakfastWeird move. Never saw it before
02-04 03:28breakfastIt's an old joseki. The result is better for B. No ladder-breakers for White
02-03 13:36blue88This move starts a fight. Many ways to continue are possible.
01-29 13:01jokepWhat is the continuation here? I doubt that W can tenuki
01-27 10:20Василийхм... белые в плюсе...могут играть в другом месте...
01-27 08:58bumping your head into w stone will help w's shape more than b's.I see q17, p15, o15,p14, o16 as a likely continuation.
01-26 12:37blue88Used by Vanq (KGS 9d). Is it a trickplay?
01-26 12:08blue88Shouldn't Black make shape like this?
01-25 14:57This looks solid. Why not here?
01-25 09:24Double hane is ko, but not a cheap ko for b.
01-25 08:15blue88Is White's corner still unconditionally alive locally? What can Black do?
01-24 15:09blue88Looks to me like Black can choose now? Let White make a position on the outside (Black p18) fight a ko for the corner (r14).
01-24 15:08blue88What if Black cuts here?
01-23 17:28my guess would be to attach at either M16 or Q12.
01-23 14:27blue88Changed to question type due to missing source. Added another variation with source.
01-23 14:22blue88You are right. However, referring to "Making Good Shape" there is a new variation, so this move can be played again.
01-20 13:52How can a sequence of "good" and "ideal" white moves lead to a result that is good for black?
01-19 06:07Василийпфф...тупая связка
01-18 09:42this should keep b out of the center, while giving b lots of territory.
01-18 08:02if b has strength on the top side (enough to hane at o18), then s17 will kill
01-17 13:58Василийа дальше????
01-17 05:45blue88I marked this move 'bad'.Don't do this exchange with a tripod group!
01-17 05:43blue88After s17 White continues with r15.This is somewhat advanced technique. As a result she got free moves on the outside, which can be used later.
01-16 00:44хм, и что теперь делать черным?
01-15 00:46blue88If Black ignores or pincers here, what does White do?
01-15 00:42blue88Looks like o17 is ladder dependant because of this cut?
01-10 15:46I think black has life aji on both sides, that's more valuable than white territorial expectations here.Am I wrong?
01-10 13:16adumwhat does this kill?
01-09 21:16isnt this bad ? where is the source
01-09 05:41blue88If Black was strong around or had no ko threats, wouldn't he just play here?
01-08 12:41Any better options for white here? please?
01-08 12:40...continuation?
01-08 12:39A little superior for black, no?
01-08 12:37Looks a little better for b, no?
01-08 12:36I can't see anything good for white out of the resulting variations here....
01-08 12:35This move seems to lead to nothing good for white... is there any better response? Otherwise, should this really be considered joseki?
01-08 12:35This makes more sense for black, no?
01-08 12:33This also looks awfully small for white...
01-08 12:32This is ok for white? Really? Black gets the corner, and has already placed a stone negating white's wall, AND he has sente?
01-08 12:31slightly better for white in most outcomes, no?
01-08 12:20This seems to lead to an inferior result to the alternative given... should it be labelled as 'good' instead of ideal?
01-08 12:18Yeah, maybe as a continuation or end game sequence... too small otherwise, I would think.
01-08 12:16Does black need to take? Is this really balanced for white? Black got corner, and is free, and some side; white just got side...
01-08 12:07Is this really so much better for white? It looks possibly even for very advanced players, but white's advantage might be a little difficult to wield...
01-08 12:02This feels too good for black...
01-08 12:00Not P17? Or maybe M16?
01-08 12:00Woah... Jump to middle?
01-08 11:59How does one finish the trick, and finish refuting it?!?! Maddening...
01-08 11:58This does look like *black* did awesome, I now understand what the previous comment meant... How should white play here to balance this?
01-08 11:53I can't see how this could not be better for white than N18?
01-06 18:51What should be done here?
12-29 19:16-.- just tenuki
12-28 19:39i've never before seen reference to second line territory as a moyo.
12-28 14:02extending to p18 is a bad move because w could get a bigger moyo with p17
12-26 00:51blue88Maybe like this?
12-23 16:00DarkSyctheThis looks good for Black. Is there any way out of this for White?
12-21 14:21No, this is refutation branch. black didn't fall for anything.
12-21 12:05so black fell for the trick and it's "slightly good for black"?!
12-21 05:30blue88This sequence happened in my game. Did White play correctly and was Black E3 a mistake?
12-20 07:03blue88What happens if Black plays here without preparation?
12-18 05:07breakfastWrong order for White
12-18 05:05breakfastVery unusual move. More common, if the position is one line higher
12-18 05:04breakfastYes, R15 is bad move
12-18 05:03breakfastNarrow extension is more solid, but everything depends on position. On empty board we cannot call K17 bad
12-18 05:01breakfastWho called it bad for White?
12-13 14:36mabaIf these moves were played in the order 1,2,3,4,7,8,5,6 then white would just have played a bad move according to that variation. How is this possible?
12-13 11:25Black initiates taisha and white collapses
12-12 09:49This happened to me in a recent game. Threw me of guard. Thus I managed to screw things up. I might have played better if it happened to me now, but still, would be nice to know what others feel should be the appropriate answer by white.
12-07 05:16blue88When Kageyama said this would lead to an equal result, White had a Hoshi stone in the upper left corner, pushed once more and then played K17. So I guess he was referring to an equal result globally.When he said the result was bad for White he was referring to the position locally. Please push once more and play L17 to see why it is locally bad for White.
12-07 05:10blue88Ok, this is kinda weird: 40 pages after telling the reader how even the result coming from this sequence is, he indeed says that these pushes are bad for White. (p.94)
12-07 02:24This is endgame move
12-06 08:06blue88There are some continuation paths but none is good or ok for White, so I changed this to a question type move until someone adds a continuation that actually works. :)
12-05 02:24blue88I removed this description:"Allowing black to push out on the 4th line (of victory) is bad.Source: Lessons in the fundamentals of go, by Toshiro Kageyama"Because it's wrong: Kageyama says that White's nice framework is compensated by Black walking along the line of victory SO NEITHER SIDE HAS ANYTHING TO COMPLAIN OF THIS WALK. (p. 56)
12-02 12:37This is an old joseki, nowadays considered slightly better for black
11-29 11:54blue8838 Basic Joseki recommends this move. However, that must be a mistake in the book (or an old variation maybe), because every pro whom I heard to speak of this position (must have been at least 3 pros by now) said it's a mistake for the reasons given in the move explanations.
11-29 11:16jokepno, because W would not play R19, but T18.
11-28 12:20blue88I changed this to a question type because it has no source and the result is the same as in the Joseki from 38 Basic Joseki I added, except for the fact that White has cut already (but should probably save the cut for later).
11-27 18:30DarkSyctheI think this move is rather bad because it gives black a nice wall and sente.
11-23 10:08blue88I removed the description "forced" as this move is by no means forced. Instead White should Hane.
11-20 07:47if the ladder is in w favor, and b squeezes and extends, how unfavorable should it be considered?
11-20 07:40given that b has played an extra stone, if he has the advantage, it is slight.
11-20 03:17blue88This move is possible (38 Basic Joseki p.197) but no continuation has been added yet.
11-19 18:58LindseyKSlightly better for b, no?
11-19 12:13not joseki, this just shows the ladder. w r17 required ladder. b o18 required ladder.
11-19 09:17Couple things to consider in b's favor.Having p18 makes r18 more effective.As far as sides are concerned, b is on the 5th line, w on the 3rd.
11-19 09:06you might be right if you had to have an eye at p15. but extending down the side (or something like s15 or m14) is going to be worth more than the 2 points o16 makes.
11-19 08:54kill is optimistic. i'd start the attack on eye space or shape at o18/o16, or surround at n15 maybe
11-19 08:47this makes n17 an aim for b
11-19 05:22LindseyKWhat? This is Joseki? If the ladder works, this is terrible for white. If the ladder fails, this is bad for black.
11-19 05:18LindseyKWhat a shocking Joseki. It works, I guess, but every move after a certain point caught me by surprised. Isn't this slightly better for white? Seems like he got the better part of the corner, and jumped out first. I would think black also needs an equivalent jump to truly balance, making this sente for w, and this seemingly much better for w.
11-19 05:16LindseyKSo this is slightly better for black? Otherwise, the parent a couple back at Q16 shouldn't be labelled bad, no?
11-19 05:15LindseyKShouldn't this actually be a little better than N16? It's more balanced, and protects against potential future weaknesses, while giving slightly better influence as far as I can tell... Someone higher ranked than me care to elucidate?
11-19 05:14LindseyKYes, very much. White and black both can either reach into the corner or reach out to leave, so they're both in Miai for life.
11-19 05:13LindseyKCould someone talk over the differences between 1 and 2?
11-19 05:12LindseyKHow does black finish off this kill?
11-19 05:11LindseyKIt was said that M17 and S18 are Miai for life--can we see that?
11-19 05:07LindseyKthe problem with this move is that S is a relatively small point compared to the massive waste that this wall becomes when black counters somewhere around L16, for instance. It's a decent follow up sometime around mid game, I think, but first focus on expanding from the wall and salvaging the situation.
11-19 05:00Why is this listed as bad? This seems clearly superior to the move listed as "good", as black is required to respond at 1, giving white better shape when he does kill at 2. Granted, it's terrible to begin with, but this is better than killing, and then being put in atari, letting black have all this while wrecking your shape *in sente*.
11-18 13:26Not a big fan of this result. I wonder if cutting at r17 without the r15/s16 exchange might not be better.
11-18 12:15blue88Happened in my game, when I needed to make a base as White in enemy influence. A simple Ikken-Tobi looked too attackable to me so I played Tsuke at the pincer stone. What do you think about it?
11-18 12:07blue88Happened in my game. Looks pretty bad for Black doesn't it? I think Tsuke-Osae is not Joseki when White has o16 sitting ready on the fourth line already.
11-15 12:14blue88White has to be careful with r17 because there is no ideal variation (or not yet added?) that leads to a satisfying result for White.
11-14 05:34white is alive in the corner and has sente
11-11 23:51blue88Kogo's suggests this move and I've seen it before. Added as 'good' and not ideal because I know neither source nor follow up.
11-10 14:22this requires a favorable ladder
11-10 12:38blue88Doesn't this create a serious weakness at S15?
11-09 14:13blue88I changed this type from Trick Play to Ideal, because if the ladder works, it is a very good move and not a trickplay!
11-09 13:29blue88There is no positive continuation, so I changed this to a question type.
11-08 17:24i have a move that i always do and start this same way and then next white move wood be r17how is that?
11-04 17:06blue88Kogo's says White can still live in the corner with [r17], but how could she?
11-03 09:19i would suggest r13. If s16/17 get cut off, then the s17 r17 exchange is bad for w.
10-31 00:54I see black P17 played pretty often here. It might be useful for someone who knows more than I to work out some variations around that...
10-26 12:53blue88I'm not sure if White needs some reinforcement to play this move, but basically it exists.
10-25 06:57blue88Played in 35th Japanese Meijin, title match #12010-09-01: Takao Shinji 9p vs. Iyama Yuuta 9p
10-24 15:07takmakкак правильно ответить на этот ход Б?
10-22 09:56blue88Since the continuation is not complete and there is no source, I changed this to question type.
10-21 09:40What is black's best response to this move?
10-20 12:31blue88Black has to defend but the book doesn't say how. I think this is fine.
10-20 12:07blue88Played on KGS by Flashback to prevent White from connecting her stones.
10-20 04:37blue88Compare to 12th Nongshim Cup Round 3: Xie He 7p vs Lee Sedol 9p.
10-20 03:37blue88Compare to 12th Nongshim Cup Round 3: Lee Sedol 9p vs Xie He 7p.
10-19 05:12blue88Is this good enough to prevent having a cutting point at q17?
10-18 07:33blue88Compare to 12th Nongshim Cup rd1, Lee Sedol 9P vs Wang Xi 9P
10-17 14:06blue88Played 01.09.2010 in the 6th Korean Prices Information final: Lee Sedol 9p vs Lee Changho 9p.
10-16 03:07blue88What does Black have here?
10-14 00:05blue88Played in: 6th Korean Prices Information Cup, final 22010-09-15: Lee Sedol 9pvs. Lee Changho 9p
10-13 07:44blue88What about this path? Is it Joseki?
10-12 10:50blue88s16 doesn't work I added the punishment given in Graded Go Problems for Beginners Vol. 4.
10-12 03:49blue88Does this move need the ladder that follows Black q18?
10-12 03:46blue88Looks like White needs the ladder to punish this move? What does she do if she doesn't have the ladder?
10-12 01:27blue88Lee Sedol played this move against Lee Changho in 6th Korean Prices Information Cup, final 1.I added the continuation that followed as Question sequence.
10-12 01:25blue88Lee Sedol played this move against Lee Changho in 6th Korean Prices Information Cup, final 1.I added the continuation as question until they played Tenuki.
10-12 01:12blue88Compare to 6th Korean Prices Information Cup, final 12010-09-01: Lee Changho 9p vs. Lee Sedol 9p
10-11 14:02blue88"Hard to say who's better" (Hwang In-Seong, 7d)
10-11 14:02blue88Just return to Joseki?
10-11 13:59blue88Many difficult variations here.
10-11 12:24blue88Why would Black play here? Looks too small?
10-11 08:48breakfastTennuki is best for White, because his corner stone cannot be killed
10-11 08:44breakfastFujisawa Shuko played it first in Kisei titlematch (in Chinese fuseki, against Cho Chikun)
10-11 08:43breakfastIt looks good for White
10-11 08:43breakfastVery rare move for Black. I heard the opinion that it's wrong
10-11 08:42breakfastReally great result for Black!
10-11 08:40breakfastI heard the opinion that it's better for White. Nice wall and sente hane at T16
10-11 08:35breakfastShape is not good, but B's corner is too small.I feel, White is better here
10-07 13:08blue88More detail about this (why J16 without another push first is bad and possible sequences after m14) in Jennies KGS+ Lecture at 02.10.2010 from Minute 59 onwards.
10-02 16:07DarkScytheI have changed this position to a bad move
09-30 15:00blue88Is this just the punishment if White doesn't have the ladder? Or is it really Joseki with Black continuing at Q19?
09-30 14:13blue88It's a trade. Cornel wasn't sure how to evaluate it.
09-29 09:53blue88Sequence played in the 11th Chinese City League. I added it as question path, since no other variations are here yet.
09-28 14:55SampiThis move is not good, as Black can get pressured at P16.
09-22 18:17DarkScytheThis is not necessarily a good move (possible timing issues) but the idea is to make the tiger mouth shape over-concentrated. I will agree this move seems somewhat odd, maybe premature.
09-22 18:15DarkScytheSee the 2-2 point move. Apparently this is inferior for white, although I think it looks ok (though not especially good either)
09-21 11:34blue88I deleted the label 'slightly favourable for black' as Jiang Mingjiu, 7p said about this position that it is hard to say if it's good for Black or good for White. 'It's just a joseki.'
09-20 14:05blue88Compare to 2010 special Meijin tournament: Lee Changho 9p vs Gu Li 9p.
09-20 14:05blue88Looks like Black can still get a ko.
09-20 13:54blue88Compare to 2010 special Meijin tournament: Lee Changho 9p vs Gu Li 9p.
09-20 13:51blue88Compare to 2010 special Meijin tournament: Lee Changho 9p vs Gu Li 9p
09-19 13:46DarkScytheThe 2-5 point is usually only played against a hoshi stone with an extension.
09-18 09:50DarkScytheSeriously? Slightly better for White? White has no eyes, a floating group with terrible shape, Black has sente, and Black has the corner. Am I missing something or does Black seem to have a huge advantage here?
09-18 09:46DarkScytheand how does black continue?
09-18 09:43DarkScytheWhite needs another move to stop B p16
09-17 18:13adumi think you should add the variations. they look valid to me too. of course, i'm not a pro either :)
09-15 10:41blue88Compare to 2010 special Meijin tournament: Gu Li 9p vs. Iyama Yuuta 9p
09-11 14:41ой, понял! а я тупо дзёсеки долбил в 016((
09-11 14:38время от времени встречаю этот ход. почему он плохой и как за него наказывать?:*
09-10 13:01totally wrong, it seem this move exist only with a komoku
09-10 09:29blue88Deleted. Please start Joseki in upper right corner and stop adding whole games...
09-09 11:30blue88"Ladder dependent for W. After the attach - hane underneath - crosscut, is there a way for W to play if the ladder is good for B?"This Question was asked in the move description: No there is not, that's why White should not play the second line Hane if the ladder doesn't work.
09-08 13:31gfootWhy does white play here? After black's response, white's M17 stone is very weak.
09-08 13:20For handicap games white passes until all stones are set up.
09-07 15:01adumit's okay to add some fuseki, but this is not the place to input whole games. please go to the Games section for that.
09-07 13:43blue88Compare to 2010 special Meijin tournament: Gu Li, 9p vs. Lee Changho, 9p
09-07 13:38blue88Compare to 2010 special Meijin tournament: Gu Li, 9p vs. Lee Changho, 9p
09-06 11:20White has sente and a few points in the corner, but Black's wall is like a block of concrete, controlling a large part of the board.This result is regarded as good for Black locally, but is often White's best choice, nonetheless.
09-03 21:30I have added lines 1 and 2. The situation seems iffy for black.
09-03 03:14Like this black is able to "hane at the head of two stones" which gives him the lead in this "race". Just compare with the joseki. In Joseki black is pressed down, here white is pressed down. Difference is really huge.
08-31 08:23blue88This exchange was played in the 35th Gosei final rd.5 between Sakai Hideyuji, 7p and Cho U, 9p.
08-31 08:02blue88This is the continuation, that followed in 35th Gosei final rd.5
08-30 15:58it's a settled complicated position with a running battle? aren't these tags practically mutually exclusive?
08-30 15:19DarkScytheI think White can just extend along the side (for example Q10). That way Black won't want to play an enclosure (too overconcentrated) but White can still invade.
08-30 13:09blue88I removed the trickplay label because of Alexandre Dinerchtein's (3p) comment on the position:'We cannot call it trickplay, better to say: new joseki.'
08-30 11:14This was played by Cho U against Sakai Hideyuki in 1020 Gosie title. IT was the final game and Cho lost it.
08-30 04:22blue88Compare to 35th Japanese Gosei, title match #4 Sakai Hideyuki, 7p vs. Cho U, 9p
08-26 07:44santa cwhat if w has this stone prior to the corner sequence? how would the sequence change? sorry i'm not sure if i should be asking it here ^^*
08-26 05:44blue88Played in 35th Japanese Gosei, title match #3 Cho U vs Sakai Hideyuki
08-26 05:34blue88Compare to 35th Japanese Gosei, title match #3, Cho U 9p vs. Sakai Hideyuki 7p
08-25 14:26blue88This move is pretty useless as long as it does not give any variation or any closer description of the surroundings. I'll delete it for now.
08-25 11:45blue88Compare to 35th Japanese Gosei, title match #2 Sakai Hideyuki 7p vs Cho U 9p
08-25 00:37ideal move
08-24 13:15blue88Compare to 35th Japanese Gosei, title match #1: Cho U, 9p vs Sakai Hideyuki, 7p
08-24 13:10blue88Compare to 35th Japanese Gosei, title match #1: Cho U, 9p vs Sakai Hideyuji, 7p
08-21 19:02DarkScythethis isn't really joseki. This is more like fuseki.
08-21 19:02DarkScytheI know this is a bad move because it's over-concentrated (see 3-3 enclosures) but there are times when I have played this when I was strong on both sides and around the central area. Perhaps it should be labeled a good move like the R16 move (which is also highly inefficient) since it can be useful in certain situations
08-18 16:56DarkScytheIf white has a moyo along the top I think this can be playable. Note it's white's turn right now too
08-18 14:56DarkScytheperhaps the best counter is to just tenuki. This works because black has no good follow-up here
08-15 08:03DarkScytheAnyone want to show continuations why this is so bad?
08-15 07:51DarkScytheJust because this isn't a conventional move doesn't mean it's bad. Just like tengen, it hasn't been explored much and therefore you can't really say that this is objectively a bad move. In my opinion, this should either be labeled as good or otherwise completely removed because of the lack of known variations and continuations.
08-13 22:41How white must play in this position?
08-11 21:57This is Chinese Fuseki, not Joseki. I feel like this doesn't belong in this database. All continuations from here on are even less relevant as far as I can tell, but I'll leave that to someone else to delete if desired.
08-11 21:55I deleted this entire line because there was no citation. Also, whole board positions aren't really joseki.
08-11 21:53Anon: You are indeed correct. Though R16 also seems inefficient. Even if you enclosed the corner, black has his stone hindering your expansion along the right side. Perhaps the star point is the best in this case.
08-11 13:43blue88Out of all possible plays in the corner, I think with Q17 you chose the worst. Now Black can approach at Q15 and exert power from his Q10 stone as he planned to do.
08-10 15:27DarkScytheonly played when there are stones in the vicinity around r10. Otherwise it would be much too cramped
08-03 18:26結局小目打っちゃうんやで
08-03 18:25大斜百変やで
08-03 18:24目外し最高やで
08-02 05:01Even if w lives its tiny, just make sure b gets sente and all is good.
08-01 08:46adumyes, White will play P16 immediately
08-01 03:57NhaneWhite must play S19 no ?I mean, he won't seriously tenuki here ?
07-31 16:18DarkScytheI have seen this played before (with Chinese fuseki) and the result doesn't seem that bad to me. Anybody want to explain why this favors white?
07-31 16:17DarkScytheThis isn't necessarily a bad move. It can be played when there is a Chinese fuseki going on. If black replies with 1 (P17) then white plays r15 and happily takes the side (It's good as far as invasions go)
07-31 10:08DarkScytheI think this move should be marked as a mistake. If you compare the end result with the other variation where White plays the correct move of q13, here the q14 stone is too close whereas a stone at q13 would be a bit better placed.
07-25 14:11blue88A KGS 4d showed me this sequence, in a situation where Sente was important...
07-25 08:23njpadinhaI'm confused. Why isn't there a joseki continuation listed for black at this point?
07-25 03:24s17 then?this is stupid joseki!
07-25 03:05what if w play n16?????
07-25 03:01then?
07-24 12:26black can play s16! bad joseki
07-24 12:11lol
07-16 06:04blue88Compare to 53. Kuksu Final Round 1: Hong Ki Pyo[4p] vs Yi Chang Ho[9p].
07-08 23:00Well i have added all Variations i know, ladder and non-ladder cases, for both center , influence right or top variations by white, as well as special case's, this move isn't bad, all variations end with black sente.
07-07 17:41XD
07-05 10:23blackmoaAfter 3-3 Black looks kind of overconcentrated
06-28 06:42blue88Anybody knows how to handle this move properly? I can't see a really good response for White yet this move is hardly played afaik.
06-28 06:41blue88Compare to [2010-04-07] 38th Korean Myeongin, preliminary: Lee Sedol 9p vs Park Jungwhan 7p
06-27 15:41blue88Compare to 11 October 1989 Weiqi Centre, Beijing 3rd Ten Strongest Round 238: Liu Xiaoguang, 1p vs Cao Dayuan, 1p
06-27 15:39blue88Compare to 28 April 2001 North American Masters Tournament Challengers' Round: Yang Huiren, 1p vs Yi Hosuk, 1p
06-27 15:39blue88I could hardly find anything on this move so I added two pro game variations beginning with a question type move.
06-26 04:39Hi, Isn't too good for black ? I think White must extend to Q10 to end this joseki.Black take the corner, the sente and probably a good position to take the North side with K16 or K17.
06-22 19:05How does white continue in this shape?
06-19 17:32O Meien mentions this variation in his book "Zone Press Park" but suggests current research refutes it -- anyone heard of that research?
06-17 07:58blue88Compare to 2nd BCcard Cup World Baduk Championship, round 4: Lee Sedol 9p vs. Park Yeonghun 9p
06-17 07:53blue88Can somebody tell me the continuation if B blocks at S15 instead?
06-17 06:53blue88Compare to 2nd BCcard Cup World Baduk Championship, round 4: Lee Sedol 9p vs. Park Yeonghun 9p
06-15 05:46blue88Compare to 36th Japanese Gosei, preliminary: Otake Hideo 9p vs. Komatsu Fujio 8p
06-14 08:20blue88Compare to Charity game for 2010 Haiti earthquake: Lee Sedol 9p vs. Lee Changho 9p
06-14 08:09blue88Compare to Charity game for 2010 Haiti earthquake: Lee Sedol 9p vs. Lee Changho 9p.
06-11 06:02blue88Compare to 36th Japanese Gosei, preliminary: Otake Hideo 9p vs. Mitani Tetsuya 6p
06-09 07:26blue88Compare to 23rd Fujitsu Cup round 2: Takao Shinji 9p vs. Park Yeonghun 9p
06-08 10:30blue88Compare to 15th LG Cup, round 1: Gu Li 9p vs. Lee Sedol 9p
06-07 14:57thucomThe only advantage I can see to this spot is that it should force a response from black. Since black played the center position in the first place, it should be a valued position to black.
06-07 14:39thucomHmm, no second move. I'm guessing that white would play like they were black next and the effect would be not felt until later in the game. But in the interest in making things interesting, how would white go about neutralizing this position?
06-04 08:03If white does not have a stone on the third line, where should black push?
06-03 10:11UzmestWhat is the purpose of this peep ? I don't think it should be played systematically, if at all
06-02 00:21blue88Compare to 5th Korean Wonik Cup Siptan final 2: Lee Changho 9p vs. Park Jungwhan 5p
05-31 05:33tailsPlease don't create mirrored positions. Visit [path:pdttqf] instead.
05-30 23:39blue88Compare to 29th Korean KBS Cup winner section round 1: Kang Jiseong 8p vs. Park Jungwhan 7p
05-28 00:50blue88Compare to 8th Chunlan Cup Korean preliminary: Kim Jiseok 6p vs. Park Jungwhan 7p
05-27 02:38blue88Compare to 2010 Shanghai World Expo special: Lee Sedol 9p vs. Chang Hao 9p
05-26 02:44blue88Compare to 6th Korean Prices Information Cup, preliminary Yun Junsang 7p vs. Lee Sedol 9p
05-26 00:03blue88Compare to 8th Chunlan Cup, round 1 Lee Sedol 9p vs. Zhou Junxun 9p
05-26 00:00blue88It is indeed ridicolous.
05-25 01:06blue88Compare to 23rd Fujitsu Cup round 1 Kim Jiseok 7p vs. Alexander Dinerchtein 3p
05-20 07:20kochithis allows ko... w should just live
05-18 05:34blue88Compare with 8th Chunlan Cup, round 1: Lee Sedol 9p vs. Zhou Junxun 9p
05-17 02:53kochiHigh Chinese opening
05-16 22:15kochiA pro on KGS has claimed that this, or extension on the 4th line is the right move 95% of the time.
05-15 16:07tailsDone. Please see [path:pdttpf].
05-15 14:47tailsI'll delete this node, and move all the children into Q14.
05-12 15:58tailsHmm... Strictly speaking, this move should be at R12, like the first move is at Q16 and not at Q4, according to the guideline of this site. Should I flip the positions (this one and all the continuations)?
05-11 07:15MarkingDepends on the postion, if black wants a fight, then P17(taisha) is definetly better.
05-10 07:27What is "san-san break move"?
05-03 10:43..
04-25 07:29actually its really simple, when you for example just play on the 3-3 point and than let black run along on the second line.White gains lots of influence and black just gets very little territory, which is worth not really more than sero.
04-25 05:10To a 15k this seems like really dificult move to counter with white
04-22 16:54This leads to a big exchange: the corner for strenght. But locally looks better for white (the corner is big).Remember, however, that this turns out as a result of black's choice upon blocking at p15. In other words, if black played this way is because he wanted to stress the outside and give up the corner.
04-22 16:51Similar to another well-known variation, but not white's position is somewhat better. In any case, black's satisfied and locally the result favours him.
04-22 16:501 or 2?
04-22 16:49This leads to a big exchange: the corner for strenght. But locally looks better for white.
04-18 17:08tailsI've changed the label from "Good for white" to "Good for black". You can also do that.
04-18 16:30Erreur de traduction ..... pas "Bon pour blanc" mais "Mauvais pour blanc"
04-18 03:45tailsThis move violates the symmetry guideline, and has no continuation.
04-15 14:00tailsPlease see [path:pdqdqcpc] instead.
04-13 11:59tailsI think wO10 is somewhat slack, and Black has many good extension moves along the edge.
04-13 11:03adumthis position is joseki, so it's equal.
04-12 12:28I added this variation to show why black shouldn't play S18. I'm not sure about the continuation but it seems OK.
04-07 15:04Deutch???
04-07 10:06for one, S16 should get you back to [path:pdqfqhqcqdpcocrdrercqeodncrfoesend]O17 and S14 look interesting
04-07 10:03for one, S16 should get you back to http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:pdqfqhqcqdpcocrdrercqeodncrfoesendO17 and S14 look interesting
04-05 10:55Does anyone know the proper white refutation of this move? The cut at P16 no longer succeeds at killing the R16 group, as it would have if black had played S16
04-04 00:13While its true that black can create a wall and gain center influence, you must remember that white has a living group in the corner while black does not. This means that if timed correctly, white could attack black's eyeless wall and gain a lot of territory while black is busy running away.
03-31 06:12This is a trick move, I think - The 2-2 stone is vulnerable, but black's idea is to sacrifice it and gain a strong wall on the outside while holding white down to a tiny corner.
03-31 02:57Black might think that this move is clever and that white is pincered, but this is not the case. Black's S18 stone is no vulnerable and white can happily take the corner insuring life. This leaves black's Q16 stone extremely vulnerable to attack and white can exploit it easily. Playing on the S18 line should be something you do only after playing at least one corner, but even then its not a move you want to make unless you are extremely confident in your ability.
03-30 17:37tailsThat's interesting. Can you show some continuation?
03-30 16:09Jonas JermannDieser Zug führt zumindest zu einem gleichwertigen Resultat oder sogar zu einem guten Resultat für Schwarz. Ich würde in dementsprechend nicht als "beste Widerlegung" bezeichnen...
03-28 20:352008-01-29 zhang li vs zhang weiwei plays the kick in the opening and has no stones nearby. Many other pro games that played this move also...... It settles the group quickly. The label "bad move" itself could be incorrect in regards to go. This is really over simplifing the game a bit.
03-26 02:10UzmestIt is bad if black does not have a stone or more around k16, pro say so, every high dan will tell you that too
03-24 07:14If this is a bad move then why does everyone on tygem use it? A lot of the joseki books out of japan are just trash. I wonder about this one also??
03-24 05:57very succesful with low digit kyu in kgs.S16 is both the intuitive and loosing move.
03-24 03:09this seems to put white in a bad place
03-23 04:14This is joseki !
03-21 18:26surely, black will cut and white will have hard time defending his two stones. Hane seems risky.
03-20 22:37I agree with the other adum and Marking here, the 'kick' here is generally played when there is a stone at the q10/r10 area. White from here does not have 100% life, but is very close to it. (Which is why the stone at around R10 is needed)
03-17 19:40How does White continue in this position? White needs to take care of both of her groups.
03-16 13:56this looks like a sequence from a handicap game. i think w has gained a little. the b stone on the right isn't nearly the worry for w as the w stone on top for b.
03-15 13:43tailsLet's add continuations to [path:qdttod] instead of here, if any.
03-13 10:40tailsI think that this position and [path:peqcoc] should be merged. And, for the other position is better developed than this one, I think the continuations of this one should be moved there.Ryo33, will you add your positions again there?
03-12 12:14s16 ist manchmal möglich
03-10 23:15tailsAnd, to follow the symmetry guideline, this move should be at L10 rather than K9.
03-10 23:12tailsThis cannot be a joseki. I'd vote for deletion.
03-09 21:09gnosI looked this up on Kogo's. I'm calling this joseki for the time being.
03-09 21:02gnosI still see no answer to my question here. The problem I see is that it looks to me like white gets an inferior position at this point. If s16 cramps white's style, what is the point of the avalanche joseki? As a 6 kyu player, I can never get to it as white because my opponents will all S16. Is that joseki? If so, what is the follow up?
03-04 04:04mafutrctJoseki = common sequence, it does not have to be a kakari.
03-04 04:00mafutrctOh it's quite common :) Just an exchange
03-04 04:00mafutrctAfaik, black is never strong around Q10 because then Q16 would be a mistake in direction.
03-04 03:57mafutrctImagine black not playing the hane. That results in two things:1. White is a bit less strong (preverable in midgame)2. White can play S15 to get big yose. Black S15 prevents exactly that.
03-04 03:56mafutrctbirdwm: afaik, yes, it's a one way street after Q16.LindseyK: Afaik, every variation that contains a white atari at R17 is called avalanche.
03-04 03:54mafutrctThis should be fine for both players.
03-04 03:53mafutrctThere are good responses, it just was not added yet.
03-04 03:50mafutrctAfter S15, black S14 becomes gote, and white can tenuki. Without S15, black S14 hurts a lot more.
03-04 03:49mafutrctNo, as white can prevent a very big yose at b S17 and the black shape still has holes. Also, white got very strong, moves like b R9 are not much of a threat anymore.
03-04 03:48mafutrctIt's good shape. Other moves here usually result in worse shape and/or do not satisfy the initialjoseki idea (building influence...).
03-04 03:46mafutrct"Doesn't white need an equivalent jump to balance this out for an end to the Joseki?"- no, as S18 and M17 are miai for life, so this extending would be only yose, and not particulary big.
02-26 18:06tailsThis move must be a pass, and all the continuations are shown under [path:qepc] (opposite color, flipped position). Sorry but I'll delete this node.
02-26 17:54tailsDone. Please let me know if anything went wrong.
02-26 15:52tailsI'll transfer this move from D4 to Pass later.
02-26 14:51LindseyKWhat an interesting, bizarre sequence.
02-26 14:50LindseyKThere are many variations, how can we know which is the avalanche joseki from here? Could someone indicate that?
02-26 14:50LindseyKPerhaps there are special cases where that is true, but allowing a forcing move like that at any other time would be too damaging to be settled as Joseki.
02-26 14:47LindseyKendgame sequence? ....
02-26 14:47LindseyKThat would just mean there were other variants than the one shown that are not yet present.
02-26 14:46LindseyKHow is this a masacre? White doesn't have some awesome wall on the outside or anything... and black has a solid corner, that, if left like this, can still extend from the fourth line.
02-26 14:43LindseyKHold on, the three space jump is considered "ideal", but there is no good response to it being invaded? um, hello?
02-26 14:42LindseyKHow did that play at S15 help?
02-26 14:41LindseyKIsn't this too good for b?
02-26 14:39LindseyKThis is really ideal? This moves seems really random. I'd love to see an explanation...
02-26 14:33LindseyKThis sequence is in the Ear Reddening Game, but I've read that Shusaku made a mistake, though from what I've read it appears Inseki made one first--his last move should have theoretically been at P14, no? This is how the 8dan played it, though, so....
02-26 14:28LindseyKI'm no expert, but as far as I can tell, this is very necessary. -8K KGS
02-26 14:27LindseyKThis is my speculation on how this would ideally continue... seems fairly obvious, perhaps there's something better to do? As it was left, black was unsettled, so I just thought I'd post why--thus this thread.
02-26 14:19LindseyKThere are problems with this branch... an ideal move disappears part of the way through? This sequence perhaps should not be labelled "ideal"....
02-26 14:15LindseyKThis is really considered Ideal? How is an approach on the 2 line a possibly "ideal" move? Surely something is missing...
02-22 11:39This move is ok
02-21 13:43adumit's unclear to me if [src:21st] thinks this is an ideal move or not.
02-20 07:54mafutrctThis move and all continuations is a 30k level mistake - do we REALLY need to include this??
02-19 08:40in isolation, probably b is better as he has solidified territory. But in a position where a b moyo has just been erased ...
02-18 12:16which side comes out of this in a better position?
02-14 20:26chantrealol how do u even save a game
02-14 20:22this has helped me with my go ranking...
02-14 20:20i don't get it
02-14 08:26tailsDone. Please let me know if anything went wrong.
02-12 13:55adumhard to imagine. i will delete it.
02-12 13:44is this really a move that a strong player might consider?
02-12 12:48Kosumi!
02-12 07:28gnosIsn't this Joseki? I won't relabel this until I find a source. But I believed this to be joseki up until now.
02-11 18:40adumthis move is not a mistake, unlike White's previous move
02-11 18:40adum[jiot] actually says that black has influence here
02-11 16:42birdmwsince there is no alternative line, wouldnt the avalance have been started before?
02-11 01:40gnosIf R15 is a mistake then it should be made clear how this is a refutation. Honestly, aside from their being better plays than R15, I can't see why it's a mistake. The best argument you can make I believe is that it's aji keshi. But then that should be explained in the commentary.
02-10 22:00tailsTo follow the guideline, this move should be at S17 instead of R18. I'll flip the move and all the continuations later.
02-10 15:10yoyomaI think this leads to unconditional life.
02-10 07:26I think you will find b l17 / w k16much harder for b than just starting at b m17 / w n18 / b k16(or k18)
02-09 21:16Konstantin V. PleshakovПочему черные забирают угол? Я ошибаюсь или белые еще могут выжить, сходив в сан-сан?
02-09 15:06mafutrctYea, of course, but sometimes it's still better to play here instead of Q12 or R11 as usual. At least this move was played by pros. I'd still vote to flag this as "bad" with an explanation that it is _sometimes_ good.
02-06 04:17breakfastBlack can win the race, but it makes W too thick outside.So, usually it's bad for B
02-06 04:14breakfastBlack plays here, if there is no way to attack White's group.If it's possible to attack W - it's too slack. In this case (with J17) it's better to answer actively by P18 or empty triangle at Q17
02-06 04:12breakfastThe whole pattern is outdated. You cannot find it in recent pro games.White's wall in gote is not good enough usually
02-06 04:10breakfastBut where can you find modern pro games with this pattern?Last time I saw it played in 70's
02-06 04:08breakfastJust outdated. Cannot call it bad
02-06 04:06breakfastBlack can just give up 2 stones
02-06 03:58breakfast70.88.111.22 is right
02-04 18:03What happens if white pushes through immediately instead of playing 1 or 2?
02-04 10:08problem with q11 is the s16/r17 exchange. Without the exchange, If say B jumps in at r12, W r11 followed later by R17 would allow W to effectively sacrifice r14. But after the exchange, W could not find life on the inside.
02-04 09:16mafutrctI'm not going to say this is a good move, but it can probably be played with a low shimari in the lower right.
02-03 18:00tailsSo, the essence of my question is: Is bT19 really a trick move and wS18 really tricked? If this position is good for white, then the "trick" doesn't hold.
02-03 11:26mafutrctThis situation is utterly insane.
02-02 17:34tailsIsn't this position good for White, especially compared to [path:qcpd]?
02-01 17:41gnosI'm unlabeling this as bad move until someone provides a refutation. A suboptimal move may not be joseki but it cannot be called a "bad move" unless there is a clear refutation of it.
02-01 12:53tailsI have transferred this move from D4 to Pass.
02-01 12:27tailsOk, I have transferred this move from P17 to R15.
01-31 16:25przprobsIf white plays like this, he is just giving black sente.
01-31 16:16przprobsQ13 is a mistake unless black has more stones on the side because it leaves the group open.
01-31 16:15przprobsattaching here is usually thought to be too defensive.
01-31 16:13przprobsattaching at n16 is seen as less favorable except in emergency situations because normally attaching against a weak stone is bad.
01-31 16:10przprobslook at l17 for the continued variation
01-31 15:57przprobsIf white doesn't have the ladder, he is in deep trouble. If the ladder is good for white, the result is still not good.
01-31 15:55przprobsFor modern pros, to protect the cutting point is the only move.
01-31 15:50przprobsBlacks thickness is not that great because of the bad aji with R14.
01-31 15:47przprobsWhite plays like this if the right side is important, like in the Chinese Opening.
01-31 15:42also, the peep at o14 would be the main reason why o16 is considered not as good as o15.
01-31 15:36modern pros believe that o15 is better than o16 because white does not need the eye shape o16 gives, and o15 is more solid.
01-31 15:29White plays this way if he has stones in the top left corner, making a nice extention.
01-30 20:38tailsTo follow the guideline, this move must be at R15.
01-30 20:24tailsBecause Black can be tricked, like [path:pdrbqcrcrdqbpbqeqdocpc].
01-30 19:45Why is this tricky?
01-29 11:55tailsThis move should be a pass instead of playing at D4.
01-29 01:26breakfastYes, it's a joseki. Usually B plays like this, if he wants to fight, when his position is thick
01-29 01:24breakfastThis result is usually good for White. Big aji at R13 later
01-28 19:29hyperpapePlayed by Yamashita Keigo in the second game of the 34th Kisei. No idea if it's joseki or what. White had a low solid position in the upper left, black had a shimari in the lower right.
01-28 18:58hyperpapeYamashita Keigo and Cho U played this way in the first game of the 34th Kisei. I don't know if either of the past two movesare good or joseki. Cho, playing black, won the game by resignation.
01-28 10:44tailsI have changed the type from Good to Ideal based on: [src:shojiten,Hoshi Joseki, p. 84]. The book says that this move is honte.
01-28 09:29tailsI have changed the type from Ideal to Bad based on: [src:shojiten,Hoshi Joseki, p. 201].
01-26 07:55tailsI have changed the type from Bad to Ideal based on [src:shojiten,Hamete, p. 85].
01-24 09:16mafutrctsource: mingjiu lesson
01-24 09:16mafutrctsource: mingjiu lesson
01-24 09:16mafutrctsource: mingjiu lesson
01-24 09:04mafutrctsource: today's mingjiu lecture on kgs.
01-24 07:43tailsNice job. I think they are fuseki rather than joseki, and should not be included in a joseki database. If there are sequences starting in the center of the board and we call them joseki, then they should be local in the center, like bK10-wL8-bJ8 ([src:shojiten,Fuseki, p. 236]) and bL10-wTenuki-bJ10 ([src:shojiten,Fuseki, p. 237]), but I think they have not been fully evaluated as joseki.
01-24 07:07tailsI have added a description (in Japanse) and some continuations. Hopefully the Question is settled.
01-23 01:04Andre EngelsThis settles the corner for the time being: There are no big points left to play.
01-23 00:48Andre EngelsBlack's thickness is impressive, but white should still be happy about living comfortably after having played 2 moves less in this corner.
01-22 06:18mafutrctisnt this joseki?
01-22 06:11mafutrcti deleted some variations starting from tengen. they were empty anyway. does not make much sense to have tengen anyway in this database.... (?)
01-22 06:09mafutrctabout the description: this definitely is an "approach" by definition of that word. i think there was a translation mistake, maybe the author meant that this is not an "approach aiming at the corner"
01-22 06:06mafutrctthis move was discussed in detail at http://mafutrct.wordpress.com/2009/06/16/mafu-studies-joseki-15/. I asked various mid to high dan players, so there should be no retarded mistakes. however, it was never verified by a pro or book. should i still add the variations? btw, the final result was that this move is 0.5pt worse than joseki.
01-22 06:03mafutrctbut it leaves a weakness, so you have to consider it carefully. anyway, this is already very deep in the variation, so of course you xan implement different ideas here depending on the board.
01-22 06:02mafutrctyes p14 is also possible.
01-21 23:39adumThis is joseki according to [src:sps,p. 141].
01-21 23:09Andre EngelsLooks bad - white is strengthening the stone she should be looking to attack. I can find one professional game where this is played, but in that case there was a strong black wall as the backup along the 6th line.
01-21 18:02Andre EngelsI think P14 would be a better move.
01-21 03:33tailsHi, 220.255.7.* user. We don't need this move in the database. This move is rude only as an opening move, and just a symmetry as a joseki move.
01-20 13:28mafutrcti don't see a problem with tenuki..
01-20 13:07mafutrct?
01-20 12:36mafutrcti'm not sure about the result. i think it was ko? anyway it is not optimal.
01-20 12:34mafutrcti'm not sure about the order of this move. inseong made a mistake in his documents sadly.
01-20 12:23mafutrctI thought this is a bad move?!
01-20 11:33mafutrctthese statistics are far to small to be considered, i think
01-20 11:23mafutrctBlack is a bit thin
01-20 10:55well if b r15 fails ;)(i think it depends on the ladder?)
01-18 16:49tailsAnd it was me, forgot to login.
01-18 16:47I have deleted all those variations starting from white. (Actually, they all had no continuation, only one white stone for each.) Let's not have them unless there is a good reason.
01-16 21:01adumthis is a mirror of the other 4-5 point. as we only show variations down and to the right of the diagonal, i am deleting this starting point.
01-16 13:54Henry HemmingThis joseki leaves white in gote.
01-16 05:06tailsThe book says this is greatly good for black, so I labeled "Good for black" again.
01-15 23:53Andre EngelsPlayed too rarely to choose among variations.
01-15 23:50Andre EngelsPlayed in the days of Doseki.
01-15 23:43Andre EngelsThe usual move if white has a pincer down the right side; I changed from 'bad' to 'good' because there are cases of professionals playing it with the right side empty (about 20 times in my GoGoD-database, which is about 6% of the cases in which the previous move's position appeared with both sides empty)
01-15 10:26adumi think you mean previous move? i agree. i have changed it to Ideal.
01-15 09:43Andre EngelsNeeds support in the lower right corner; however, normally this is the case when this position is on the board.
01-15 04:18tailsSo, in what situation is this the best move?
01-15 03:00mafutrctI changed it to "good" and added a comment. please check if that is ok.
01-15 02:55mafutrcti'm not sure why this is bad?
01-14 21:54Andre EngelsBlack gets a nice amount of territory, while white has to worry about the cut at P15.
01-14 21:25Andre EngelsThe white stones are light.
01-14 21:20Andre EngelsVarious continuations have been played here, but I cannot find any to choose over the others.
01-14 14:34tailsIt was me, sorry.
01-14 14:32The book explicitly states this is worse for black than the other move. (It is written in Japanese so I can't fully quote it here.) Maybe you can mark this move as "good", despite of the book, by explaining the situation in which this move is the best.
01-14 13:50Andre EngelsIf white captures the stone at N17, she is very solid, but saving it is heavy.
01-14 00:52mafutrctthis leaves better yose for white. i'll mark it as bad.
01-14 00:32mafutrcti think this should be joseki as well. mark as ideal?
01-14 00:30mafutrctafaik both moves are common.
01-13 23:24mafutrcti agree that this move is soft, but since it is the best possible move sometimes i'd regard it as a "good" move - not ideal, but also not bad. i don't know if the source explicitely states this is really "bad".
01-13 23:09Andre Engels'Hane at the head of two' is a proverbially good move.
01-13 15:36tails has a source for his claim -- mafutrct, if you can find a reference that refutes it, let's hear it!
01-13 15:23tailsThis move is too soft when you could choose the other move.
01-13 08:03mafutrcti think this is not a mistake
01-13 07:41mafutrctthis move should be at R16 to be consistent
01-12 11:44if w protects the cut at M17, then b Q18 takes the corner
01-11 21:05gnosIs this position settled? It looks to me as though black can monkey jump and kill the corrner if white doesn't respondOn the other side, black can cut successfully and break out.It seems to me that this cannot be the end of the joseki.
01-11 08:18isdThis move invites black to secure the corner territory and take liberties from the white stone at the same time. In normal circumstances this can only be described as a bad exchange.
01-08 11:59See also http://senseis.xmp.net/?RTGProblem31
01-08 11:10http://senseis.xmp.net/?44Point33InvasionJoseki
01-07 15:37I'd like more detail and commentary about this refutation. Why is it a refutation? Believe it or not, it's not that obvious.
01-07 14:34I added this extension, and added the text "the usual extension from the 3 3 stone". However, someone I played against told me that the large knight's move is more common... I don't know which is the case. Can someone informed please comment on this so we can get it right? I'm not adding the large knight's move because I know absolutely nothing about it. Informed people please speak up.
01-06 13:25looks better than P17 to me
01-06 10:15Yes it is. The point with this move is to invite white to take the corner so that you make "2 moves in a row" against the corner stone. And although it is a unusual move profesional players have played it: http://senseis.xmp.net/?46PointTo me it looks like Q17 is an better answer as Q14 doesnt seem to be threatening to take that stone or shut it in the corner.
01-04 15:34I would assume the question move (8) would be less desirable because the points white gains on the top aren't worth as much as the influence from allowing black to drag out so far.
01-02 10:55MarkingThis is only good if there is a pincering stone around R11. This is because it makes white stronger, and the corner isn't yet secured.(it can still be invaded at 3-3)
12-31 11:29adumi agree -- this probably should be 'Good'. i think this is a good variation if white wants to take away territory and black's influence won't be valuable.
12-31 09:33gnosI understand the labeling here. White has to do something about that corner and invading gives black too much influence. However, Since this technique was used against me with great effect, I would like to know why this is a "mistake" and not just "not joseki". The 3-3 invasion is labeled as joseki, and this doesn't look all that different.
12-28 21:56adumhi, these questions are better suited for the forum. you can choose your language through either your browser settings or your user settings on goproblems.com.
12-28 11:09Is position settled here?
12-28 11:08....? Is this considered Joseki? Is this settled? Is this finished? This looks like black got a massacre...
12-28 09:35gnosMore detail on this refutation please. It looks like if white presses he gets bent four in the corner and black get's a thick position. Please elaborate this position!
12-28 09:31gnosMore detail here please
12-28 09:30gnosI (7k on KGS currently) got tricked by it as black. I believe the presence of nearby stones can strongly affect how good or bad this move is.
12-28 05:59LindseyKAlso, how does one choose which language one wants to view in? I made an edit in Esperanto, and now I can't see English when I switch to "view". :\
12-28 05:52LindseyKI asked this on the forum, but perhaps it's good to do so here as well; how does one go about translating the website, labels, etc.?
12-28 04:34vinhanlook at joseki Kogo for example
12-27 19:22JagarBlack can play here if white already has a stone around k17.
12-27 11:15adumfor this site, we wish to remove symmetrical patterns because otherwise it is hard to find things and a waste of effort. therefore, we always choose down and to the right in a case of symmetry, and so i'm deleting this move.
12-27 05:20MarkingThe 5-5 point is considered joseki, but since it's so far away, it isn't very efficient. (that's also the reason there aren't any specific joseki's for 5-5) However, if you prefer influence over territory, it might fit your style. I myself don't see it as an "ideal" move, but a "good" move, but there are many other opinions.
12-26 15:05This is not joseki, this is invasion
12-26 06:53yes, leading to a black wall in gote for white if he wishes to retain an eye at S14. the shape is virtually useless for white
12-25 05:57vinhanthis is bad move . i think . sometimes it's only use to probes
12-23 21:49adumi don't think this is really joseki
12-23 13:31gnosPlease explain why this is a mistake.
12-23 08:18adumlet's leave the center point (tengen) as the one center opening unless there's a reason not to.
12-23 03:12Isn't the 4-6 point also sometimes played?
12-22 21:07adumthe labeling is a good issue to discuss on the forum. i'm pretty sure the 5-5 is considered joseki, though i don't know any books that cover 5-5.
12-22 19:42gnosAdding the 2 4 approach as "good".
12-22 19:39gnos4463 enclosure. Adding as "Joseki".
12-22 11:44gnosThis sequence looks very good if black has one or more stones around Q10 .
12-22 11:01gnosWhat about tenuki here for white? Since white has two eyes already, isn't that better in alot of cases than just preventing the forcing move at P13?, for example, if black is already strong around Q10?
12-22 10:42gnosAccording to Eidogo, This move was an innovation of Kitani Minoru's, taking sente while taking a slight disadvantage locally. A lot of detail and a lot of detailed commentary needs to be added to the refutation here.
12-21 20:01John KerpanNotice White only has extended three spaces from his three stone wall. If he goes further, a Black building move in the area might risk invasion of a thinner position.
12-21 19:58I think it is important to note that this should only be used when White does not favor one side or the other. If White actually wishes to build a moyo on one side or another, it makes more sense to approach directly from that side. Otherwise, Black has a chance to make the moyo an empty skirt.
12-21 14:44adumfor now, there's no automatic way to do this, but you can put links to positions into the descriptions.
12-21 13:23Any chance we could sequences with different order of moves combine in some manner?
12-21 11:24aduminteresting sequence... does black R16 next?
12-21 09:58adumi think this is only good if black already has a stone around [r11].
12-20 11:10gnosAdum, this move is not labeled so I assume it is not the start of a variation. I do not believe it is the end of a variation either (There should be a way to know this for sure, like marking a move as "unfinished" or something.). I assume you intend to add branches here. I was going to add the branch I found on gobase today, but I'm not sure I understand how this works. I will wait for you to add at least one branch before I do anything here. Will find simpler joseki to add in the meantime.
12-20 08:20gnosIs the 5 5 point actually considered joseki? I've played it and had difficulty getting a good game out of it. I don't see any variations of this yet that are labeled joseki here, but if there are any I'd certainly like to learn them. So that brings up a nice technical question, if there are not any known joseki arising from a certain point on the board, do we label it green or brownish green? I see the logic of making it green, it's just a move after all, has nothing to do with joseki yet until the other player responds locally to it, and we don't want to say that this particular isolated move is "not joseki", as though it were somehow wrong (from the point of view of joseki). But some might contend that if there are no joseki arising from it then it is not joseki and should not be labeled as such. I would vote to keep the green labeling, but it is worth hearing the opinions of other people on this issue.
12-20 01:34dkillerIf black is not captured please present a refutation
12-19 22:32apetrescTo answer your question, it's in the "Edit" tab, second menu in the "Tagging" category.
12-18 16:17adumhmmn
12-10 16:12adumtrue, this is not the avalanche. the large avalanche is [path:qdodocpdpcqencnd]
12-09 14:12adumthanks for your comments about Brugo -- i had missed some things and have updated the comparison page. i don't want to be unfair =) we can discuss more when i have the forum online.
12-03 13:30The comments "... often translated to english as the great Avalanche" is not true, the Great Avalanche is a totally different joseki.
12-03 05:37brugoI see this website is a merge of ideas of other seperated services, which is always nice to see them combined.However your comparison is not really complete in my opinion.- BruGo also supports color codes- Brugo also lists the recently added sequences. - In fact brugo allows to ask questions both by feedback forms, joseki can be added by the users as well, and there even is a forum (the forum is currently down due to server migration though).Of course there are also a lot of criteria missing But it's understandable from a market point of view not to mention those. :). Perfectly understandable.But for the rest, I must admit I like your websites and the ideas behind it. Welcome in the joseki world. :)
11-13 04:20santa chm, when i add a question it keeps the description ("please add a description here and only write something which cannot be expressed using the tags" or something along these lines in hebrew if i chose to save the position >
10-30 02:57Bassyet more testing
10-19 18:19adumI meant in [src:aaj].
10-19 18:18adumNot at all like [path:qdoc].
10-19 18:03adumi like to study [path:qdodpgqcrcpcrekc] sometimes.